A new flag for the UK, should Scotland leave Watch

Gondur
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Scotland's referendum on independence is now near, but the question of what might happen to the union jack has been largely overlooked. An association of flag experts, or vexillologists, has created a set of designs it hopes will encourage a discussion.Some 400 years ago when the crowns of England and Scotland were united, an argument raged about how the blue field and white saltire of St Andrew could be combined with the red cross of St George.
The Scots were eager that their flag should be laid on top of the English flag, but of course the English thought it should be the other way around. It took a Royal proclamation to determine that the English flag should take precedence.
Now, the prospect of Scotland leaving the United Kingdom throws open the question again. It's already been suggested by the College of Arms that with the Queen still head of state of an independent Scotland there would be no need for a redesign. But there is still the possibility of renewed debate.
The full article can be read here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25205017

Firstly, the flags suggested in the article are hideous. The modern flag is too garish and looks like a flag from a country in the South Pacific and it poorly represents the UK style of grandeur, history, reason, nobility, you get the idea.

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The modern flag above is disgusting! Burn it with fire!

Now what would the Union Jack look like if the colours of Scotland were removed. Like this:

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This flag looks very 'incomplete' - like a primitive Union Jack. It looks like a printer printed the Union jack but ran out of the colour blue. It looks like a flag from a country in the Caribbean or South Pacific.

The key to a new flag is simplicity. I think we should move away from the union jack completely, because it reminds me of the war, 1940s and it looks hideous. My two designs below incorporate the Uk coat of arms mounted on the Saint George's Cross. Unlike the current union jack, both of the my flags represent each of the countries in the new UK; England, Wales and Northern Island. There is nothing Scottish in the crests. The Scottish Unicorn, which is on the current UK coat of arms, is replaced with the Welsh Dragon (finally Wales is represented on our flag!) and the Scottish Lion has been replaced with the crest of Wales!

Flag 1

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Flag 2

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Which flag do you like best? Personally, I like flag 2 the best because it's not as dense as flag 1. It's simple, which is key. It has the English Coat of Arms with a shield on which there is the Welsh coat of arms, the Irish harp, and the English lions. All countries are represented equally in both flags!

You could simplify flag 2 further by removing the crown and Latin so there will only be the cross and the shield representing the 3 countries in the UK. The outline is now easier to draw

Flag 3

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The outline of the flag is very easy to draw. Given that there are flags like the USA flag, with stars and flags have other embellishments which are difficult to draw, I think this looks pretty good. It still represents the 3 countries within the UK. I'm still thinking what could represent Northern Ireland. It is possible to simplify this further. You could simply have a shield split into four quadrants, filled with solid blue and red but maybe that's a little too simple...
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zebra_fish
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The bbc has already said that flag article was an April Fools' joke
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Gondur
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(Original post by zebra_fish)
The bbc has already said that flag article was an April Fools' joke
Well the article was written in December last year? I quoted it as a source for the debate. There are other online articles too.
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Monkey.Man
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we should keep the current union flag if scotland does end up seceding from the UK - the blue is a darker blue than the scottish flag's blue colour anyway
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SerLorasTyrell
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(Original post by Monkey.Man)
we should keep the current union flag if scotland does end up seceding from the UK - the blue is a darker blue than the scottish flag's blue colour anyway
Eh don't think you can pretend to own our country anymore by keeping our flag in yours if we do go independent


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lucas13
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just leave it be, the ozzie and kiwi flags and others are based on ours so you cant change it anyway
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Gondur
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(Original post by Monkey.Man)
we should keep the current union flag if scotland does end up seceding from the UK - the blue is a darker blue than the scottish flag's blue colour anyway
Why should we have another country represented in our flag? That's like asking Germany to put vestiges of the Union Jack in their flag.
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Monkey.Man
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(Original post by SerLorasTyrell)
Eh don't think you can pretend to own our country anymore by keeping our flag in yours if we do go independent
who's going to stop us?
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zebra_fish
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(Original post by Gondur)
Well the article was written in December last year? I quoted it as a source for the debate. There are other online articles too.
Oh right, I thought it was this one that someone posted on facebook, but it's the daily mail haha http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ependence.html
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Gondur
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(Original post by lucas13)
just leave it be, the ozzie and kiwi flags and others are based on ours so you cant change it anyway
There's lots of implications because there are more flags than the Union Jack, royal flags, military flags, and lots more depicting England and Scotland together. I think it should be something changed over time, not straight away but when the queen dies, our currency and flags should be changed.
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Monkey.Man
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(Original post by Gondur)
Why should we have another country represented in our flag? That's like asking Germany to put vestiges of the Union Jack in their flag.
meh, does it really matter to the point that we have to change the flag? you may think so, I would disagree personally
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SerLorasTyrell
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(Original post by Monkey.Man)
who's going to stop us?
Ehm just about everyone who isn't English?


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Gondur
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(Original post by Monkey.Man)
meh, does it really matter to the point that we have to change the flag? you may think so, I would disagree personally
Well Southern Ireland have their flag, which doesn't incorporate the UK. Scotland will have their Saint Andrew's Cross. Yet it's typical UK to represent a country in their flag which isn't in their Union. I think if Scotland decides to leave then it's only right we should change our flags to represent what we are, not what we were.
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Monkey.Man
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(Original post by Gondur)
Well Southern Ireland have their flag, which doesn't incorporate the UK. Scotland will have their Saint Andrew's Cross. Yet it's typical UK to represent a country in their flag which isn't in their Union. I think if Scotland decides to leave then it's only right we should change our flags to represent what we are, not what we were.
but...but...the colours go so well together on our current flag! :cry2: white and red are thooo 1600s *flips fringe*
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in case it wasn't clear, "thoo" means "soo" but with a gay lisp e.g. "thuper" instead of "super" - just so that was clear.
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Monkey.Man
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(Original post by SerLorasTyrell)
Ehm just about everyone who isn't English?
ptttffff what are they gonna do to us? send us a report? write us a letter telling us how disappointed they are?
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russellsteapot
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I'd just leave it as it is. The blue bit can represent the sea instead of Scotland.

The majority of proposed designs have looked vile, and many of them forget the chief rule of a good, strong flag: kids have to be able to draw it at school.

The current one is also a great brand, and it'd cost a fortune to replace. I don't think something like Scotland wanting to be independent (not that they will) should cost the rest of the UK, either in terms of global brand recognition or monetary terms.
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David B
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(Original post by SerLorasTyrell)
Eh don't think you can pretend to own our country anymore by keeping our flag in yours if we do go independent


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This made me laugh. Who cares about a little bit of blue in the flag? The colour's in the flag were only meant to represent the unity of the countries, not the ownership of it.
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coeus91
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(Original post by Gondur)
England, Wales and Northern Island. .
Northern island?! Please dont tell me youre actually at university! eejit.

Its northern ireland!! Not island!

(Original post by Gondur)
Well Southern Ireland have their flag, which doesn't incorporate the UK. Scotland will have their Saint Andrew's Cross. Yet it's typical UK to represent a country in their flag which isn't in their Union. I think if Scotland decides to leave then it's only right we should change our flags to represent what we are, not what we were.
"Southern Ireland"...think youll find its the 'Republic of Ireland' and that they don't use the union flag due to the billion years of civil war going on between northern ireland and the Republic and the union flag is used to show support for the queen, showing that youre against the Republic. Its got a lot more bombings, violence and riots involved than a big vote. You never heard about the paramilitaries based around Ireland and northern ireland? Go walk through the republic areas of norn iron holding a giant union flag and see what happens to you, you won't live to tell the tale!
These extremists arent demonstrating themselves in Scotland as far as the news can say so I dont think you can really compare with the situation over here.



I suggest, before you try spreading your 'valuable' opinions about the flags, you do a bit more research behind each of the countries represented in the flags; those who use the union flags and those who dont and why. Also, an added note: its inly the union jack when its on sea. Otherwise its the union flag.

To be honest, any integrity and sincerity of your opinion is completely thrown out by the fact that you dont even know what these countries are called.


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Gondur
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(Original post by coeus91)
Northern island?! Please dont tell me youre actually at university! eejit.

Its northern ireland!! Not island!



"Southern Ireland"...think youll find its the 'Republic of Ireland' and that they don't use the union flag due to the billion years of civil war going on between northern ireland and the Republic and the union flag is used to show support for the queen, showing that youre against the Republic. Its got a lot more bombings, violence and riots involved than a big vote. You never heard about the paramilitaries based around Ireland and northern ireland? Go walk through the republic areas of norn iron holding a giant union flag and see what happens to you, you won't live to tell the tale!
These extremists arent demonstrating themselves in Scotland as far as the news can say so I dont think you can really compare with the situation over here.



I suggest, before you try spreading your 'valuable' opinions about the flags, you do a bit more research behind each of the countries represented in the flags; those who use the union flags and those who dont and why. Also, an added note: its inly the union jack when its on sea. Otherwise its the union flag.

To be honest, any integrity and sincerity of your opinion is completely thrown out by the fact that you dont even know what these countries are called.


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The current Union flag is terrible to look at. The flags I created are a little too dense and intricate to be practical but a reduction of flag 2 could be very effective. A shield mounted on the Saint George's cross would be a better representative of the countries in the new UK.
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coeus91
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(Original post by Gondur)
The current Union flag is terrible to look at. The flags I created are a little too dense and intricate to be practical but a reduction of flag 2 could be very effective. A shield mounted on the Saint George's cross would be a better representative of the countries in the new UK.
Terrible to look at, in your opinion. Im actually a big fan of the union flag. I think it stands out, more interesting to look at than three lines of colour.
Flags don't just change because someone thinks they're ugly. They are based upon years if history, its not like they removed the saltire if st Patrick from it when Ireland became a Republic. It repents union. Not ownership.
There are many other flags based on the union flag. Should they be changed also? Also on your design, there's nothing representing northern ireland. Ireland yes but that's not in the uk anymore.

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