There should be compulsory maths and statistics units in all science degrees.

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True... I've never used SPSS myself to be honest, I use Origin and Mathematica for data analysis. On my course in the first week we were given a 75 page booklet on statistical analysis and errors and told learn - if you don't do it properly you will fail your labs. We then had a proper stats course in second year which was probably the hardest maths course we had in my opinion... and I study physics so the maths is hardly trivial.

how intense!

Sounds like Physics really has it covered from what everyone has said.

I just feel it would be easy enough to incorporate the basic proper statistics I did at Masters level into undergraduate. It wasn't like it was any more difficult really. Or at least have the OPTION of doing an extra statistics module.

Reply 61

Noble.

I get the impression you're all talking about a kind of statistics different from the statistics studied by mathematicians, because the stats options on an undergrad degree are considered the softer options (at Oxford at least).

Reply 62

redferry

Original post by Noble.

My boyfriend said he found statistics the hardest parts on the Bristol Maths course, but no I am not advocating teaching Biologists Maths level statistics, a lot of people would fail. Probably including myself :P

At the same time, I think too much babying goes on and a lot of lecturers don't understand statistics beyond putting in some data and talking in set phrases about what comes out.

Reply 63

Noble.

Original post by redferry

that's odd. I'm the only one out of my college who hasn't picked stats this year, and when I asked them why they picked it the first response from them all was "Because it's easy" :lol:

Reply 64

redferry

Original post by Noble.

that's odd. I'm the only one out of my college who hasn't picked stats this year, and when I asked them why they picked it the first response from them all was "Because it's easy" :lol:

Yeah he's a really good mathematician as well - he graduated with over 80%

Just didn't like stats I guess :P

Reply 65

redferry

Original post by Fizzel

Stats are pretty important many areas of physics. I don't know what applies I just think labelling 'science degrees' and what should be compulsory is a bit far reaching. You have different sets of people arriving with different levels of knowledge, requiring different skills, and leaving with different skills.

but is the point of a degree not to catch these people up? At the moment in Biology it feels like the maths phobic people compromise the understanding of everyone else. Within a lot of Biology degrees you have to do catch up Chemistry if you haven't done chemistry A level. That seems a lot less important to Biology that stats to me. Also I am speaking from the perspective of someone who IS coming from 'behind' - I didn't do maths A level.

A fair bit, we have specific maths modules for most of the course, as you'd be screwed without them. However some people won't study anything other than the compulsory modules, and others will take more even straight from the maths dept. Many pick them because they are often considered easier, and others don't because they want to pick something that either interests them or would be needed for a final year project or something. I wouldn't consider someone who dodged a maths module to pick up a nano module, lesser in anyway.

Well there is specificity to course requirements which is basically my point.

I don't think you really need maths A-level to learn Stats basics though. I certainly didn't.

I don't know that is up to the course, but it is about competence, and different courses will have different levels of competence. It would probably be beneficial for most course to include more of both, but its a balance. Perhaps some courses are lacking, I wouldn't know, but I know for examples, most people over in the maths dept would consider our knowledge lacking or sub par. That's fine, because we have different requirements, on ours its fine, and on other it would be excessive, I'd imagine the same applies to stats or coding across subjects. Most courses use maths as a tool, and different course will use that tool more often or require are better knowledge than others.

ok for example people on my course had done zoology degrees (again take as basically biology), and done no statistics. Do you not think that is wrong?

There is a wider argument about whether undergraduate study is properly equipping people for postgraduate or whether it tailoring too heavily to the job market and such. Perhaps they is manifesting in a specific manner on your course but I don't know if that is general across all science degrees.

The thing is people don't take zoology to go into the job market so I guess we get disadvantaged by people who take biology as a soft option science just to get a grad job.

Reply 66

chazwomaq

Original post by TolerantBeing

If you don't think psychology is a science my friend you have a very old fashioned view. Unfortunately that represents the kind of thinking that mental illnesses aren't as serious as physical illnesses.

Very old fashioned view.

I didn't say that.

But plenty of bigwigs do. See this document from the House of Lords Science and Technology committee: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldselect/ldsctech/37/3705.htm#n14

And the majority of psychology is not about mental illnesses, although I'm not sure if you were implying that.

Reply 67

ParetoOptimum

Original post by Fizzel

We did a load of maths modules of course, but we didn't do any specific stats modules. Stats is pointless grunt work in most practical case, if you've got any meaningful amount of data you're going to use a computer to analyse it anyway. You still need an understanding so you can tell how to process it and in the case where the your software is blatantly bull****ting you, but to dedicate an entire module seems a bit extreme.

And this attitude is why so much of the so call "peer-reviewed research" out there is complete rubbish: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21588069-scientific-research-has-changed-world-now-it-needs-change-itself-how-science-goes-wrong

OP, I completely agree with you

Statistics is a fundamental part of experimental research, yet a worrying proportion of scientists have a poor grasp of it.