How close did the axis come to winning WW2? Watch

DAS4793
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#1
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I used to think the allies won the war relatively easily. But now you hear people saying they only won because of mistakes made by the Germans.


What do you think?
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captain.sensible
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the asskiss probably would have lost to russia alone, so even if they had successfully invaded the UK and america didn't feel like helping around they still probably wouldn't have won
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IFoundWonderland
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What is the axis?
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James222
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You really Germany alone could defeat Russia and America two countries largely unscathed from WW2 ? whilst German where exhausted from defeating the French Empire and bailing out Mussolini who kept making mistakes.

The Germans came close to defeating Britain but they changed tactics at the last minute and GB survived. Once the Americans got involved and Hitler failed British operation forced him to attack Russia to access food and energy source
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DAS4793
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(Original post by captain.sensible)
the asskiss probably would have lost to russia alone, so even if they had successfully invaded the UK and america didn't feel like helping around they still probably wouldn't have won
HA asskiss. I seen what you did there.

Well done, go get yourself a cookie captain sensible.
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DAS4793
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(Original post by ILovePancakes)
What is the axis?
The combined forces of Germany, Japan, and Italy during ww2.
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IFoundWonderland
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(Original post by DAS4793)
The combined forces of Germany, Japan, and Italy during ww2.
I cannot believe I didn't know that.........
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DAS4793
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(Original post by ILovePancakes)
I cannot believe I didn't know that.........
mehh probably because the other side during ww2 were mainly referred to as the Germans instead of the axis.
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AntisthenesDogger
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Trying to quantify total war in the context of "I was closer" Is faulty and stupid anyway.

Better to put it this way; The Axis forces were successful during the early stages of the war but poor leadership and over-extension hamstrung them progressively more and the longer the conflict went on, the less they were war-ready. War exhaustion came pretty fast.
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DanB1991
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Basically the axis were winning until 1941.

"If" America had not entered the war and Britain was taken care of before any moves against Russia was made "then" they would of had a chance.

Germany never planned the total conquest of Russia, simply an eventual treaty in their favor (akin to how napoleon gained most of Europe under his control). However with multiple other fronts this would have been very hard.

Add the USA into the picture it's pretty dire.

Nazi Germany, Italy and Japan all needed to concentrate on Russia together to have a chance. Same with the USA, all would of had to work together to defeat them. In any case they required no other distraction, be it Britain or USA/Russia.

The Axis basically fought too many people at once without enough manpower.

You also have to keep in mind war between Russia and Germany would of happened eventually, however Germany simply chose the wrong time to attack.
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james22
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Germany would have had mjor problems taken Britain, even without help from the USA. They stood no chance against Russia. The war was lost the moment it started, it was only a lot of luck that got them as far as they got.
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emobambam
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the Allied forces would not have won if it wasn't for the sacrifice of the Soviet Union.
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Observatory
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The Germans were only really close between the Fall of France and the invasion of the USSR; if Britain had made peace and stayed at peace then the Germans likely would have eventually defeated the USSR. However, even this is a weaker argument than it seems. First, even if Britain had made peace in late 1940 or early 1941, it's doubtful she would have remained at peace after the German invasion of the USSR. And second, even if Germany made no plan to invade the USSR, it seems likely that the USSR was itself going to invade Germany between late 1941 and 1943, before Germany's new European empire could be fully exploited.

I think once it became a bid for total European supremacy this war was unwinnable for the Germans, despite the fact that conquering France and the Low Countries so quickly, and receiving the help of Italy and Japan, was much more than they could have reasonably expected in 1939. Germany's actions actually make more sense if you don't expect a quick victory over France: in this case the USSR likely remains allied to Germany out of fear of Britain and France, while after a year or two of stalemate the British and French may agree to a negotiated peace where Germany and the USSR keep their areas of Poland.

Their best chance would probably have been to unilaterally restore France as a genuinely independent nation, in exchange for French recognition of their ownership of Poland and a break with the British alliance. It would at that point have been difficult for Britain to remain in the war, and conflict with the USSR is no longer inevitable. But the Germans got greedy, and underestimated how large a proportion of its national income the USSR had been spending on armaments giving them false confidence of victory.



As for Japan, their actions are simply inexplicable and probably a result of the profound ignorance of their governing elite with respect to the rest of the world. They never had a hope of defeating the USA.
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DanB1991
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(Original post by Observatory)
As for Japan, their actions are simply inexplicable and probably a result of the profound ignorance of their governing elite with respect to the rest of the world. They never had a hope of defeating the USA.
Actually Japan's hand was kind of forced.

It effectively needed a war against the USA to survive in it's current state. Both in terms of international power and economically. You have to remember Japan relied on the USA for virtually all it's oil. When the USA finally cut off it's oil in 1941, it was forced to invade more and more of south east Asia and eventually attack the USA.

Japan knew what it was doing and relied on a precise plan. However like in most wars, no plan survives contact with the enemy. WW2 documents actually showed Japan knew what would happen if their plan failed and predicted it rather accurately.

They relied on pushing the USA out of the pacific before national mobilizations and completely destroy their pacific fleet. After which it would point it would cost too much for for the USA in all sense's to retake their possessions and they would have been likely to sue for peace.

If their plan failed, the USA would eventually mobalise and take capture their possessions in the pacific bit by bit before threatening the home islands.

Like Germany with the USSR, Japan never planned on the total defeat of the USA, just an agreement in their favour after winning the war.

However if anything went wrong and either Japanese momentum was stalled and the USA forces (especially it's navy) in the pacific survived it would have been game over. Japan actually knew this at the time. After Japan's defeat at midway they had lost the war. The USA had retained enough of it's navy in the pacific to enable it to survive long enough to commit to full military and industrial mobilization.

Japan actually knew they had lost the war after midway, the only thing they got wrong was the USA's desire for their complete defeat and a unconditional surrender.
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Observatory
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(Original post by DanB1991)
Actually Japan's hand was kind of forced.

It effectively needed a war against the USA to survive in it's current state. Both in terms of international power and economically. You have to remember Japan relied on the USA for virtually all it's oil. When the USA finally cut off it's oil in 1941, it was forced to invade more and more of south east Asia and eventually attack the USA.

Japan knew what it was doing and relied on a precise plan. However like in most wars, no plan survives contact with the enemy. WW2 documents actually showed Japan knew what would happen if their plan failed and predicted it rather accurately.

They relied on pushing the USA out of the pacific before national mobilizations and completely destroy their pacific fleet. After which it would point it would cost too much for for the USA in all sense's to retake their possessions and they would have been likely to sue for peace.

If their plan failed, the USA would eventually mobalise and take capture their possessions in the pacific bit by bit before threatening the home islands.

Like Germany with the USSR, Japan never planned on the total defeat of the USA, just an agreement in their favour after winning the war.

However if anything went wrong and either Japanese momentum was stalled and the USA forces (especially it's navy) in the pacific survived it would have been game over. Japan actually knew this at the time. After Japan's defeat at midway they had lost the war. The USA had retained enough of it's navy in the pacific to enable it to survive long enough to commit to full military and industrial mobilization.
Even if Japan had destroyed the entire US Navy in 1941, US would have still won. Japan could not in any circumstance have prevented the US from mobilising; all US industry and shipbuilding was beyond their reach. At most they could have taken Hawaii and delayed the inevitable US victory another year or two.

So I think they were not forced to launch this war; even 'surrendering' diplomatically in 1941 would have been a better option for them, since at least then they would have received terms better than unconditional.
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Observatory)
The Germans were only really close between the Fall of France and the invasion of the USSR; if Britain had made peace and stayed at peace then the Germans likely would have eventually defeated the USSR. However, even this is a weaker argument than it seems. First, even if Britain had made peace in late 1940 or early 1941, it's doubtful she would have remained at peace after the German invasion of the USSR. And second, even if Germany made no plan to invade the USSR, it seems likely that the USSR was itself going to invade Germany between late 1941 and 1943, before Germany's new European empire could be fully exploited.

I think once it became a bid for total European supremacy this war was unwinnable for the Germans, despite the fact that conquering France and the Low Countries so quickly, and receiving the help of Italy and Japan, was much more than they could have reasonably expected in 1939. Germany's actions actually make more sense if you don't expect a quick victory over France: in this case the USSR likely remains allied to Germany out of fear of Britain and France, while after a year or two of stalemate the British and French may agree to a negotiated peace where Germany and the USSR keep their areas of Poland.

Their best chance would probably have been to unilaterally restore France as a genuinely independent nation, in exchange for French recognition of their ownership of Poland and a break with the British alliance. It would at that point have been difficult for Britain to remain in the war, and conflict with the USSR is no longer inevitable. But the Germans got greedy, and underestimated how large a proportion of its national income the USSR had been spending on armaments giving them false confidence of victory.



As for Japan, their actions are simply inexplicable and probably a result of the profound ignorance of their governing elite with respect to the rest of the world. They never had a hope of defeating the USA.
Japan also believed that they would conquer the whole of China within three months.
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Baron of Sealand
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Like, very far.
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DanB1991
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(Original post by Observatory)
Even if Japan had destroyed the entire US Navy in 1941, US would have still won. Japan could not in any circumstance have prevented the US from mobilising; all US industry and shipbuilding was beyond their reach. At most they could have taken Hawaii and delayed the inevitable US victory another year or two.

So I think they were not forced to launch this war; even 'surrendering' diplomatically in 1941 would have been a better option for them, since at least then they would have received terms better than unconditional.
Again in terms of a total victory... yes your right, however that was never japans aim, it was suppose to be a quick war, in which they completely crippled the USA in the pacific resulting in america coming to the bargaining table.

Fleets take a very long time to build, especially those for combat use's. If they wiped them out they could have been unopposed in the pacific and the USA would have most likely sued for peace.

Japan required to achieve all it's strategic objectives before american mobilization, if they did that the USA would have to choice but sue for piece.

Japan would never had invaded USA soil, however they could of quite easily bombarded their ship building facilities on the western coast. However Japan was relying on an undefeated record throughout 1942 to gain peace.... a tad optimistic, but then again they were desperate.
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pjm600
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(Original post by ILovePancakes)
I cannot believe I didn't know that.........
Sorry, but relevant, how do you score?

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IFoundWonderland
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(Original post by pjm600)
Sorry, but relevant, how do you score?
That was shocking! Especially that last line "I'm a girl - I don't know that stuff. That's boy's stuff." Like wtf..

I got them all.. I just didn't realise that Germany, Italy and Japan were known as the axis powers.
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