The Student Room Group

Foreign language teaching at KS2 in the new national curriculum

Hi guys, I'm doing my dissertation/research project on the introduction of foreign languages to the new national curriculum. Specifically, KS2. And I'm really interested in your opinions!

Teachers and trainee teachers: I would be very grateful if you could complete this survey for me- http://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/110151BCRYW

But what do you guys think of this in general? Is it too early to teach languages? Are there enough teachers with language skills? Do you think it will be useful?
It’s never too early to teach languages! Children under the age of 8 are pretty much language learning machines.
Whether there are enough teachers with language skills is debatable I suppose that’s a different question about how realistic Michael Gove is in his policies. However, eventually we will need more language teachers, simply because Britain’s economy needs foreign language speakers.
In general I’m feeling pretty positive about this reform probably one of the only things Michael Gove does that I will like. There is one issue I have with it though I’m a fan of the fact that Gove is restricting which languages primary schools will be able to teach (see first link below). It’s just the choice of languages which I struggle to understand. French, German, Mandarin, Latin, Spanish they’re all fine. But Italian and Ancient Greek? I would be ok with those two if Arabic was up there (see second link about most economically useful languages for Britain).
This reform seems to be more about ideology than about improving Britain’s future standing in the global economy sure, not every National Curriculum reform should be solely about improving Britain’s economy, but right now that seems to be the aim of most of the other countries which are reforming their education systems. They’re worried about their children lacking skills when they leave school, jobs could go to other countries where employees have better skills, etc, etc. Michael Gove, on the other hand, seems to be solely focussed on ideology, and that’s the issue I have with this policy. Italian is basically a useful language if you want to go on holiday to Italy, or do a degree in History of Art, but Arabic is so much more important for the UK’s economy! I just don’t get it!
So, to summarise, I like the idea behind the reform, but not the idea behind the idea behind the reform.

https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/ks2_choice_of_languages_consultation_report_final_published%20(2).pdf
http://www.britishcouncil.org/sites/britishcouncil.uk2/files/languages-for-the-future-report.pdf
Reply 2
Original post by flopsybunnybell
It’s never too early to teach languages! Children under the age of 8 are pretty much language learning machines.
Whether there are enough teachers with language skills is debatable I suppose that’s a different question about how realistic Michael Gove is in his policies. However, eventually we will need more language teachers, simply because Britain’s economy needs foreign language speakers.
In general I’m feeling pretty positive about this reform probably one of the only things Michael Gove does that I will like. There is one issue I have with it though I’m a fan of the fact that Gove is restricting which languages primary schools will be able to teach (see first link below). It’s just the choice of languages which I struggle to understand. French, German, Mandarin, Latin, Spanish they’re all fine. But Italian and Ancient Greek? I would be ok with those two if Arabic was up there (see second link about most economically useful languages for Britain).
This reform seems to be more about ideology than about improving Britain’s future standing in the global economy sure, not every National Curriculum reform should be solely about improving Britain’s economy, but right now that seems to be the aim of most of the other countries which are reforming their education systems. They’re worried about their children lacking skills when they leave school, jobs could go to other countries where employees have better skills, etc, etc. Michael Gove, on the other hand, seems to be solely focussed on ideology, and that’s the issue I have with this policy. Italian is basically a useful language if you want to go on holiday to Italy, or do a degree in History of Art, but Arabic is so much more important for the UK’s economy! I just don’t get it!
So, to summarise, I like the idea behind the reform, but not the idea behind the idea behind the reform.

https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/ks2_choice_of_languages_consultation_report_final_published%20(2).pdf
http://www.britishcouncil.org/sites/britishcouncil.uk2/files/languages-for-the-future-report.pdf


Whilst I can definitely see your point (it's something I believed for ages too) I was thinking the other day that ok, it might not be economically significant, or even politically significant now, but culturally, it is significant. Also, learning Italian can be a great help for learning other languages, and helps strengthen European ties too.
So I actually don' mind that it's one of the recommended languages anymore. And I'm definitely keen that languages are being reintroduced as important subjects!
Original post by flopsybunnybell
It’s never too early to teach languages! Children under the age of 8 are pretty much language learning machines.
Whether there are enough teachers with language skills is debatable I suppose that’s a different question about how realistic Michael Gove is in his policies. However, eventually we will need more language teachers, simply because Britain’s economy needs foreign language speakers.
In general I’m feeling pretty positive about this reform probably one of the only things Michael Gove does that I will like. There is one issue I have with it though I’m a fan of the fact that Gove is restricting which languages primary schools will be able to teach (see first link below). It’s just the choice of languages which I struggle to understand. French, German, Mandarin, Latin, Spanish they’re all fine. But Italian and Ancient Greek? I would be ok with those two if Arabic was up there (see second link about most economically useful languages for Britain).
This reform seems to be more about ideology than about improving Britain’s future standing in the global economy sure, not every National Curriculum reform should be solely about improving Britain’s economy, but right now that seems to be the aim of most of the other countries which are reforming their education systems. They’re worried about their children lacking skills when they leave school, jobs could go to other countries where employees have better skills, etc, etc. Michael Gove, on the other hand, seems to be solely focussed on ideology, and that’s the issue I have with this policy. Italian is basically a useful language if you want to go on holiday to Italy, or do a degree in History of Art, but Arabic is so much more important for the UK’s economy! I just don’t get it!
So, to summarise, I like the idea behind the reform, but not the idea behind the idea behind the reform.

https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/ks2_choice_of_languages_consultation_report_final_published%20(2).pdf
http://www.britishcouncil.org/sites/britishcouncil.uk2/files/languages-for-the-future-report.pdf


What confuses me is why you think it is OK to introduce Latin at that age but not Ancient Greek. :l

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by yl95
What confuses me is why you think it is OK to introduce Latin at that age but not Ancient Greek. :l

Posted from TSR Mobile


Learning Latin and learning Greek are two very different things.
Latin is much easier, and much more in the reach of primary school children. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a go at Greek, but they will probably reach a higher level in Latin than in Greek.
Greek is offered at far fewer secondary schools than Latin is. It seems unlikely to me that if a primary school offers Greek, there will be a secondary school nearby happy to offer Greek (see link below). Latin, on the other hand, is offered by a suprisingly large proportion of state secondaries...
Sorry if I didn't make that clear :wink:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130802151255/https://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/curriculum/secondary/b00199616/mfl/languages
Reply 5
Original post by flopsybunnybell
It’s never too early to teach languages! Children under the age of 8 are pretty much language learning machines.
Whether there are enough teachers with language skills is debatable I suppose that’s a different question about how realistic Michael Gove is in his policies. However, eventually we will need more language teachers, simply because Britain’s economy needs foreign language speakers.
In general I’m feeling pretty positive about this reform probably one of the only things Michael Gove does that I will like. There is one issue I have with it though I’m a fan of the fact that Gove is restricting which languages primary schools will be able to teach (see first link below). It’s just the choice of languages which I struggle to understand. French, German, Mandarin, Latin, Spanish they’re all fine. But Italian and Ancient Greek? I would be ok with those two if Arabic was up there (see second link about most economically useful languages for Britain).
This reform seems to be more about ideology than about improving Britain’s future standing in the global economy sure, not every National Curriculum reform should be solely about improving Britain’s economy, but right now that seems to be the aim of most of the other countries which are reforming their education systems. They’re worried about their children lacking skills when they leave school, jobs could go to other countries where employees have better skills, etc, etc. Michael Gove, on the other hand, seems to be solely focussed on ideology, and that’s the issue I have with this policy. Italian is basically a useful language if you want to go on holiday to Italy, or do a degree in History of Art, but Arabic is so much more important for the UK’s economy! I just don’t get it!
So, to summarise, I like the idea behind the reform, but not the idea behind the idea behind the reform.

https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/ks2_choice_of_languages_consultation_report_final_published%20(2).pdf
http://www.britishcouncil.org/sites/britishcouncil.uk2/files/languages-for-the-future-report.pdf


I'm a bit sceptical about the whole 'children learn languages faster' thing, as I don't seem to find enough evidence to support this in the literature. But I definitely like the idea of teaching them languages anyway!

My research is specifically looking into the practicalities of it all... whether there are enough teachers, and whether their training is appropriate. I'm also looking into how confident they feel about it all! So far it could go either way but it'll be interesting to find out when I have more responses.

I also agree that the languages chosen seem bizarre. Surely the widely spoken languages such as Spanish, Mandarin, etc. should be prioritised? I'm not an expert though.
Reply 6
Bump. Had some great responses so far but in need of some more!
Reply 7
I think language teaching at KS2 is a good idea, IF
1) enough lessons are provided (at least 4 x 30' per week , spread out over different days)
2) there are competent teachers (this could be achieved by sharing specialist (maybe even native) language teachers between different primary schools - a primary school teacher with a GCSE in French will not cut it)
3) there is adequate progression, i.e. at KS3 pupils should not have to start from scratch again just because other children in their secondary school classes did not learn the same foreign language at KS2, or not as well.

PS. I do not think children learn faster than teenagers or adults. Given equal exposure times of instruction and immersion, the only thing children will be better at in the long term is pronunciation. However, I think primary school children have more time and are more motivated than secondary school children, and that is something that could be exploited.

As for which language to teach: I've long thought one could very easily circumvent problems 2) and 3) above if one were to teach a local community language. So Urdu, Polish or Arabic, Cantonese, French, Spanish, Greek - whatever makes sense given the local community. This has the added benefit that children can also use the language straightaway, every day, which is one of the most important factors determining how well children will learn a language, and how well their motivation will hold up.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by llys
I think language teaching at KS2 is a good idea, IF
1) enough lessons are provided (at least 4 x 30' per week , spread out over different days)
2) there are competent teachers (this could be achieved by sharing specialist (maybe even native) language teachers between different primary schools - a primary school teacher with a GCSE in French will not cut it)
3) there is adequate progression, i.e. at KS3 pupils should not have to start from scratch again just because other children in their secondary school classes did not learn the same foreign language at KS2, or not as well.

PS. I do not think children learn faster than teenagers or adults. Given equal exposure times of instruction and immersion, the only thing children will be better at in the long term is pronunciation. However, I think primary school children have more time and are more motivated than secondary school children, and that is something that could be exploited.

As for which language to teach: I've long thought one could very easily circumvent problems 2) and 3) above if one were to teach a local community language. So Urdu, Polish or Arabic, Cantonese, French, Spanish, Greek - whatever makes sense given the local community. This has the added benefit that children can also use the language straightaway, every day, which is one of the most important factors determining how well children will learn a language, and how well their motivation will hold up.


Do you currently teach? If so it would be really cool if you could fill out my survey so I could include all this in my results :smile: (I'm assuming you haven't yet, but if you have, sorry!)

I actually disagree that 4x30min lessons are needed per week. That's an extraordinary amount of lessons, even for a national curriculum subject. As it happens, the research is showing that most schools spend about ~45mins a week on a language. Considering how packed the curriculum is, I think that's fair enough. Think about other curriculum subjects like geography, history... they're usually done for an hour each week. I think that would be a good goal for languages.

Just my 2p haha. I agree with most of the other things you said, except maybe language specialists... from what I've seen, it's often too expensive to hire someone else to teach a class one subject, and the kids prefer their own teacher.
Reply 9
I'm not a teacher.
Original post by alabelle
Do you currently teach? If so it would be really cool if you could fill out my survey so I could include all this in my results :smile: (I'm assuming you haven't yet, but if you have, sorry!)

I actually disagree that 4x30min lessons are needed per week. That's an extraordinary amount of lessons, even for a national curriculum subject. As it happens, the research is showing that most schools spend about ~45mins a week on a language. Considering how packed the curriculum is, I think that's fair enough. Think about other curriculum subjects like geography, history... they're usually done for an hour each week. I think that would be a good goal for languages.

Just my 2p haha. I agree with most of the other things you said, except maybe language specialists... from what I've seen, it's often too expensive to hire someone else to teach a class one subject, and the kids prefer their own teacher.


Hmmm yes I can see what you are saying about time constraints. I just don't think children will learn or practise very much in one 45 minutes lesson per week - I think language learning really works best if you do a little bit every day, instead of doing something once per week (then again this probably applies to most things tbh). I would say if you can't implement it well (for whatever reason - time constraints or lack of good language teachers), then maybe it's better not to do it at all and just do the things that for whatever reason have priority. OR change focus - instead of aiming to get children to use a workable amount of one modern foreign language in that time, just aim for something else. For example:

Option 1) If your aim is a more multicultural outlook, then instead of trying to teach a single language well with limited probability of success, you could teach how to form simple common phrases in a variety of different community languages. In that case it doesn't matter if you don't have a lot of time, or no specialist teachers, because you are not aiming for depth of learning, but you do expose children to different linguistic and cultural phenomena and retain the fun parts of it. You would have to rethink the language syllabus completely though.

Option 2) If your aim is more linguistic awareness, then teach Latin. You still won't be able to do much in depth with 45 minutes per week, but as speaking and listening falls away, you can focus your time better. I think that KS2 also has some Roman History in it, right? So Latin would actually fit in quite well.
(edited 10 years ago)
I'm also really interested in this subject, so I'm bumping this thread. Are you able to share the results of your survey Alabelle?

I'm working with a team of friends looking at how Ancient Greek could be incorporated into KS2, what sort of schools might be interested in taking it up and what sort of teaching resources would be needed. Despite what people have said about Ancient Greek not being particularly helpful for lifelong learning, we feel that learning a language in a different script encourages children to develop additional mental dexterity, and the language roots found in Ancient Greek are useful for both improving English language and other European languages.

If anyone else is interested in this subject, please message me or continue posting below.

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