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viviki
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Howard)
I think this is a powerful argument for "living wills", a will or list of wishes that predetermines your wishes in the event of life throwing you a curler.

It could simply state "In the event of me contracting Altzeimers and being in such condition that I am no longer able to recognize my family, think cognizantly, it is my wish that my life be expired by medically induced means" (or words to that effect)

Surely the problem with that is that you dont know for certain how you would feel until you are actually in that situation. What if you had changed your mind but were unable to express it and were killed against your will.
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Howard
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#42
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#42
(Original post by viviki)
Surely the problem with that is that you dont know for certain how you would feel until you are actually in that situation. What if you had changed your mind but were unable to express it and were killed against your will.
But once you're in that situation (with serious Altzeimers) you really don't have much of a mind to change do you?

As my earlier post indicated my Gran spent the last four years of her having conversations with her first husband who'd be dead for 60 years. She was so scrammbled it was unreal.

I KNOW, that given the choice of early release or being dependent on having a team of nurses wipe her backside she'd have chosen an "early out"
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drago di giada
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#43
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#43
(Original post by vmong)
in general i would agree that it is justified and no one should be left to live in so much pain, im not toos ure what its called when the person is in a coma and they cant talk then it would depend because if they were religious then i guess that they would want to live in pain till the end because its something to do with not being accepted in heaven beacsue you took teh easy way out by getting someone to kill you.
Pure Ignorance on their behalf.. I'm very religious and I'd rather the plug be pulled on me than me be a vegitable.
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hume
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#44
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#44
Peter Singer, a philosopher/ethicist wrote Rethinking Life and Death : The Collapse of Our Traditional Ethics which discusses this issue. I read this a while ago it was very interesting/informative.
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yawn1
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Howard)
But once you're in that situation (with serious Altzeimers) you really don't have much of a mind to change do you?

As my earlier post indicated my Gran spent the last four years of her having conversations with her first husband who'd be dead for 60 years. She was so scrammbled it was unreal.

I KNOW, that given the choice of early release or being dependent on having a team of nurses wipe her backside she'd have chosen an "early out"
That is the problem with euthanasia - whilst I have every sympathy for you and your family having to witness what you saw as a problem for your grandmother, it was a problem for YOU. How could one possibly get inside the mind of another and say what they would want? Quality of life is subjective and decided by those who encounter people who they think have a life that is not one of quality as judged by themselves.

I have already opined that most of the problems that people (whom we think would like to be euthanised) encounter are ones of a feeling of dependence, lack of dignity etc. which can be overcome by an attitude change in society to the dependent.

In the news now are stories of the abuse suffered by the most vulnerable in society. It is not of their causing but rather of the way we view them. Should they all be euthanised because of our failings?
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JSM
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#46
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but suicide like euthanasia is illegal
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yawn1
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#47
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(Original post by JSM)
but suicide like euthanasia is illegal
Even if suicide was illegal (which it isn't, never has been - although attempted suicide might have been) how can you prosecute someone who has killed themself. :rolleyes:
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Howard
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#48
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[QUOTE=yawn1]That is the problem with euthanasia - whilst I have every sympathy for you and your family having to witness what you saw as a problem for your grandmother, it was a problem for YOU. How could one possibly get inside the mind of another and say what they would want? Quality of life is subjective and decided by those who encounter people who they think have a life that is not one of quality as judged by themselves.QUOTE]

That's why I'm an advocate of living wills. I wouldn't need to get inside the mind of someone if that person had made clear their wish for early termination under certain circumstances.
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randdom
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#49
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#49
(Original post by yawn1)
That is the problem with euthanasia - whilst I have every sympathy for you and your family having to witness what you saw as a problem for your grandmother, it was a problem for YOU. How could one possibly get inside the mind of another and say what they would want? Quality of life is subjective and decided by those who encounter people who they think have a life that is not one of quality as judged by themselves.

I have already opined that most of the problems that people (whom we think would like to be euthanised) encounter are ones of a feeling of dependence, lack of dignity etc. which can be overcome by an attitude change in society to the dependent.

In the news now are stories of the abuse suffered by the most vulnerable in society. It is not of their causing but rather of the way we view them. Should they all be euthanised because of our failings?
So what would you say about a person who was completely in control of their own mind who want to end the pain that they are in, not because they feel like they are a burden on their family and society but because they generally can't stand the condition they are in. They have had phychological analysis and they are sane should they be allowed to die?
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DrSoySauce
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That is the problem with euthanasia - whilst I have every sympathy for you and your family having to witness what you saw as a problem for your grandmother, it was a problem for YOU. How could one possibly get inside the mind of another and say what they would want? Quality of life is subjective and decided by those who encounter people who they think have a life that is not one of quality as judged by themselves.

I have already opined that most of the problems that people (whom we think would like to be euthanised) encounter are ones of a feeling of dependence, lack of dignity etc. which can be overcome by an attitude change in society to the dependent.
My aunt died a couple of years ago after a long, horrific battle with lung cancer. All the treatments, radiation, etc, just prolonged her suffering, and this isn't a disease that has to do with psycological problems, but with physical ones. She didn't want to live, but she didn't want to commit suicide either. But because of where she lived, she was stuck hooked up to machines. Is this fair?
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Howard
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#51
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(Original post by DrSoySauce)
My aunt died a couple of years ago after a long, horrific battle with lung cancer. All the treatments, radiation, etc, just prolonged her suffering, and this isn't a disease that has to do with psycological problems, but with physical ones. She didn't want to live, but she didn't want to commit suicide either. But because of where she lived, she was stuck hooked up to machines. Is this fair?
I don't think so. If you treated an animal like; prolonged it's suffering; that you'd be hauled away on animal cruelty charges.
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PQ
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#52
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#52
(Original post by DrSoySauce)
My aunt died a couple of years ago after a long, horrific battle with lung cancer. All the treatments, radiation, etc, just prolonged her suffering, and this isn't a disease that has to do with psycological problems, but with physical ones. She didn't want to live, but she didn't want to commit suicide either. But because of where she lived, she was stuck hooked up to machines. Is this fair?
If she didn't want to commit suicide then why on earth should someone else have been put in the position of killing her to ease her suffering?

If someone is against suicide then surely they're against being euthanised as well
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yawn1
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#53
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[QUOTE=Howard]
(Original post by yawn1)
That is the problem with euthanasia - whilst I have every sympathy for you and your family having to witness what you saw as a problem for your grandmother, it was a problem for YOU. How could one possibly get inside the mind of another and say what they would want? Quality of life is subjective and decided by those who encounter people who they think have a life that is not one of quality as judged by themselves.QUOTE]

That's why I'm an advocate of living wills. I wouldn't need to get inside the mind of someone if that person had made clear their wish for early termination under certain circumstances.
I don't advocate living wills either because:

Another person is given the responsibility morally and ethically, becoming culpable for that person's death.

We do not know how we would feel if it came to early euthanasia - we only know how we feel at the time of making the 'living' will. I could foresee a situation where one has willed that if they had a massive stroke and were unable to carry out daily bodily functions themself, they would wish to be killed. So now this person lies in a bed, unable to move, unable to speak and but still able to think and reason. They are going to have all feeding stopped and slowly die a death from dehydration, all the while unable to communicate their change of mind! An absolutely horrendous scenario I think you will agree.
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Howard
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#54
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(Original post by yawn1)
I don't advocate living wills either because:

Another person is given the responsibility morally and ethically, becoming culpable for that person's death.

We do not know how we would feel if it came to early euthanasia - we only know how we feel at the time of making the 'living' will. I could foresee a situation where one has willed that if they had a massive stroke and were unable to carry out daily bodily functions themself, they would wish to be killed. So now this person lies in a bed, unable to move, unable to speak and but still able to think and reason. They are going to have all feeding stopped and slowly die a death from dehydration, all the while unable to communicate their change of mind! An absolutely horrendous scenario I think you will agree.
Yes, I do see that. But surely if they can think and reason they'd be some way of communicating their change of heart. Even very badly injured people can blink their eyes.

I think the circumstances you envisage would be very rare.
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yawn1
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#55
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(Original post by randdom)
So what would you say about a person who was completely in control of their own mind who want to end the pain that they are in, not because they feel like they are a burden on their family and society but because they generally can't stand the condition they are in. They have had phychological analysis and they are sane should they be allowed to die?
I would say to that - the hospice movement is always trying to fund raise to create more facilities where people who are in unbearable pain can go. There their pain specialists CAN control pain, so there is no reason why somebody should ask to die because they are in pain - it is controllable given the right circumstances.

My biggest fear with euthanasia is that once it becomes legal, the tight constraints designed to limit the circumstances where it would be legal would be eroded over time (as has happened with abortion). Eventually, a couple of decades down the line we could have compulsory euthanasia of anyone whom the legal and medical profession deem suitable.
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Howard
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#56
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#56
(Original post by yawn1)
I would say to that - the hospice movement is always trying to fund raise to create more facilities where people who are in unbearable pain can go. There their pain specialists CAN control pain, so there is no reason why somebody should ask to die because they are in pain - it is controllable given the right circumstances.

My biggest fear with euthanasia is that once it becomes legal, the tight constraints designed to limit the circumstances where it would be legal would be eroded over time (as has happened with abortion). Eventually, a couple of decades down the line we could have compulsory euthanasia of anyone whom the legal and medical profession deem suitable.
But control pain at what cost? Sure, you can pump a cancer victim so full of drugs that he/she'd be virtually comatosed. Is there any point?
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yawn1
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Howard)
But control pain at what cost? Sure, you can pump a cancer victim so full of drugs that he/she'd be virtually comatosed. Is there any point?
Why do you think that control of pain comes at the cost of stupefying the sufferer?

Huge advances are being made all the time in palliative care, so much so that rarely does effective pain relief result in the circumstances you describe.

Pain relief is not just the action of one drug but of differing drugs that act as adjuncts with one another.

In today's society solutions such as abortion and euthanasia are quick fixes for the sake of others. What we should be doing is exercising more compassion and facilitating the means of relieving the emotional and physical agonies of members of society by looking at why they are suffering and remedying the causes rather than the condition.
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Howard
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#58
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(Original post by yawn1)
Why do you think that control of pain comes at the cost of stupefying the sufferer?

Huge advances are being made all the time in palliative care, so much so that rarely does effective pain relief result in the circumstances you describe.

Pain relief is not just the action of one drug but of differing drugs that act as adjuncts with one another.

In today's society solutions such as abortion and euthanasia are quick fixes for the sake of others. What we should be doing is exercising more compassion and facilitating the means of relieving the emotional and physical agonies of members of society by looking at why they are suffering and remedying the causes rather than the condition.
Well, if I am a critically ill person who is compus-mentus and decide I want an "early out" then I think society would be exercising more compassion by doing what I tell them rather than doing what they decide is right for me. Wouldn't you agree?
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yawn1
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#59
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(Original post by Howard)
Well, if I am a critically ill person who is compus-mentus and decide I want an "early out" then I think society would be exercising more compassion by doing what I tell them rather than doing what they decide is right for me. Wouldn't you agree?
I do not think that anyone has the right to ask another to kill them! I have already explained why I think this is wrong.

I have also said why someone, who some may think could be a candidate for euthanasia (and many posters on this thread keep coming up with all sorts of reasons why they could be) would never need to seek this as a way out as their suffering can be controlled - THAT is where true compassion lies.

So no, Howard, I am afraid I do not agree with you, and I never would. If nothing, I am consistent
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drago di giada
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#60
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#60
Oh BLAH!! Euthanasia is justified in SOME cases.. the end.
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