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Kuz
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#901
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#901
(Original post by TheWolf)
ok the winner of the champions league is 'classed' as the best team in europe -thats what ac milan call themselves after they win. If Chelsea winis its given the title of the 'champions of europe'. So bono you are right to some extent
Yeah his right in the meaning of the sense of the word!

But lets addmitt if Chelsea won, who cares if they are called the 'champions of europe', we all know they're not the best team in Europe
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username9816
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#902
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#902
(Original post by piginapoke)
Because, as stated before, its a knockout competition, therefore a single game decides who gets knocked out, and given that any team can beat any other in a single game, its a lottery! Are you saying the 4 teams left in the competition are the 4 best in europe? Because they clearly aren't.
It isn't a lottery. You can't win the champion's league purely or even majorly through luck. You need to have played the better football consistently throughout the tournament.

If a team beat Arsenal, then yes, that could be classed as "a one-off". but going on to beat another 2/3 very good teams and lifting teh title suggests that they were the best that season.
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Kuz
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#903
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#903
Just checked and this thread is really close to being the biggest thread on UKL!

Wow!
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TheWolf
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#904
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#904
(Original post by piginapoke)
Yes. Arsenal have beaten Chelsea twice, drawn once and lost once this season I believe.
but if chelsea is only 3 points behind, you could use the suggested arguement that maybe one match they lost because of fatigue (from champions league lets say)...anyways i think arsenal is the better team this season - and you guys have basically won the premiership - itll be interesting next year
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TheWolf
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#905
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#905
(Original post by Kuz)
Just checked and this thread is really close to being the biggest thread on UKL!

Wow!
in this general forum yes but the harry potter thread is still much longer :eek:
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username9816
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#906
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#906
(Original post by TheWolf)
i wouldnt call it a lottery
From from it in my view.

Besides, it was a 2-leg match. Not one.
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username9816
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#907
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#907
(Original post by piginapoke)
There is a very large element of luck. Did you see the results from the last round? Major upsets, a lot of luck involved. No pundit is suddenly hailing the last 4 teams left in the competition as the best in europe because they see the luck they had to get through and know that better teams have been knocked out.
Better in what way? It's results that count.

If you are going down the road of "but Real win loads, look at their record over recent years, that suggests they are the best or one of at the very least", then Arsenal fail on that count as well.
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Kuz
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#908
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#908
(Original post by bono)
It isn't a lottery. You can't win the champion's league purely or even majorly through luck. You need to have played the better football consistently throughout the tournament.

If a team beat Arsenal, then yes, that could be classed as "a one-off". but going on to beat another 2/3 very good teams and lifting teh title suggests that they were the best that season.
Let me put this analogy to you...

When you were younger did u ever play the game "wembly", knock-outs" (I don't know what it was called round your way). Isn't it true to say that most of the time the kid in the neighbourhood that was best of the football would go through first, and eventually win the whole game...but just that once maybe one of the crapper kids would scrap through every round and when it came to the finale, just be lucky enough to score the required amount of goals and win the game! That crapper kid, would still be crap at football, its just he got lucky once!

I propose that crapper kid is Chelsea
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TheWolf
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#909
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#909
(Original post by piginapoke)
There is a very large element of luck. Did you see the results from the last round? Major upsets, a lot of luck involved. No pundit is suddenly hailing the last 4 teams left in the competition as the best in europe because they see the luck they had to get through and know that better teams have been knocked out.
on the other hand a great team shouldnt lose 4-0 to d.coruna (ac milan)...in this sense i would say Deportivo is better than ac milan
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username9816
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#910
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#910
(Original post by piginapoke)
You can't question individual games in the league competition, or it becomes meaningless (because of the unpredictability in each individual game), you have to take the league as a whole or not at all.

There are very few cases if any where the league winners weren't the best team of the season. Docked points could be one explanation.
But the Champion's league has group stages, and when it comes to the business end of the tournament the matches are still two-leg matches (barring the final).
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Kuz
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#911
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#911
(Original post by TheWolf)
on the other hand a great team shouldnt lose 4-0 to d.coruna (ac milan)...in this sense i would say Deportivo is better than ac milan
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

NO! NO! NO!

How can you say that, ac milan are amazing! that an abhorent thing to say!
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username9816
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#912
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#912
(Original post by Kuz)
Let me put this analogy to you...

When you were younger did u ever play the game "wembly", knock-outs" (I don't know what it was called round your way). Isn't it true to say that most of the time the kid in the neighbourhood that was best of the football would go through first, and eventually win the whole game...but just that once maybe one of the crapper kids would scrap through every round and when it came to the finale, just be lucky enough to score the required amount of goals and win the game! That crapper kid, would still be crap at football, its just he got lucky once!

I propose that crapper kid is Chelsea
But in reference to your sig, numerous teams have a better track record in Europe than Arsenal anyway, hence your analogy about "It's consistency over the period that counts" doesn't back up the statement in your sig regarding Arsenal's position in Europe i.e.) They aren't the best, whether it be track record over recent years or just one season alone.
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TheWolf
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#913
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#913
(Original post by Kuz)
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

NO! NO! NO!

How can you say that, ac milan are amazing! that an abhorent thing to say!
losing 4-0 to deportivo obviously means that that night deportivo is the better team. Maybe 24 hours later, ac milan becomes the better team - a good team is shown by how they play not what they are.
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username9816
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#914
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#914
(Original post by piginapoke)
Results do not always count because of the unpredictability of individual results, didn't you listen!! I never use past season's records as it just doesn't work that way. How do I judge a team? By their players and the way the team plays over a season. Not on specific results.
If you aren't going to judge on their record over recent years - in a tournament that isn't one-game knock out and actually has groups and 2-legged matches, as well as their form in the one tournament that year, then what on earth can you judge on?

Their performance in the prem league is irrelevant in this case as the opposition is:

a.) Not european.
b.) Inferior regardless of all of the teams being from the UK.
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username9816
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#915
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#915
(Original post by piginapoke)
Which are individual games. What's your point? Look at the results from the last round. You'll see some shocking turnarounds.
The decision on which team goes through isn't based on 1 game. There were 2 games played, Chelsea did better overall. It wasn't 1 game. Arsenal didn't dominate in either game.
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Kuz
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#916
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#916
(Original post by bono)
But in reference to your sig, numerous teams have a better track record in Europe than Arsenal anyway, hence your analogy about "It's consistency over the period that counts" doesn't back up the statement in your sig regarding Arsenal's position in Europe i.e.) They aren't the best, whether it be track record over recent years or just one season alone.
Of course my sig makes sense, you don't base a teams position in Europe on previous seasons of form, thats ridiculous, otherwise teams such as Juventus, Barcelona, Man Utd even Liverpool would have won the CL hands down just because they have had a lot of European success over the years even decades....(even though most of these teams are mediocre even in some cases crap at present). A teams current position is based on a manner of things and one of the most important is the teams current season of form.

Bono why argue, you have no clue really and now your just making yourself look silly to be honest!
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TheWolf
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#917
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#917
(Original post by piginapoke)
As I keep saying, you cannot judge anything on individual matches. If we did that, the giant killers from the conference would be better than some supposedly top teams!
i think we can otherwise how can we judge how good a team is? from each year's performance? 2 year's performance? 10 year's performance. i understand that team's can have off days - but these off days mean that they are not as good a team as another that day literally. You can also judge by the team's performance overall in the season....its not important how you judge it really
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Kuz
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#918
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#918
(Original post by TheWolf)
losing 4-0 to deportivo obviously means that that night deportivo is the better team. Maybe 24 hours later, ac milan becomes the better team - a good team is shown by how they play not what they are.
correction of the bold ~ was the better team!

Like you said for that night, I don't know what da hell happened that night, but ac milan are definatly a better team than depo, and once again I don't believe that one individual game can dictate over a whole season of form!

God I'm getting verbal RSS
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username9816
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#919
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#919
(Original post by piginapoke)
Their players, how they play as a team, and their collective results taken over the entire season in all competitions.

Desist with this inane crap, as its logically flawed - if Chelsea win the euro cup but Arsenal win the league by 9 or 12 points or whatever, Arsenal are better than Chelsea [over the course of this season], end of.
1.) My argument makes entire sense, and besides, Chelsea may not win the Champion's league.

2.) Even if Arsenal did beat Chelsea, who's to say that they would go on to win it anyway?

3.) "Entire season in all competitions" - All thse competitions being non-european though.

4.) "9-12 points" - What about 3 "one-off" bad results? Or infact - 2 "One-off bad results" for one team and 1 "good one-off" results for the other. Same explanations could be put forward for that really. Or, 1/2 goals could act as 6 pointers.
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TheWolf
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#920
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#920
(Original post by piginapoke)
Their players, how they play as a team, and their collective results taken over the entire season in all competitions.

Desist with this inane crap, as its logically flawed - if Chelsea win the euro cup but Arsenal win the league by 9 or 12 points or whatever, Arsenal are better than Chelsea [over the course of this season], end of.
if arsenal wins by 6 points thats the equivalent of chelsea losing 2 games because of off days..thats your arguement for losing the champions league how come you cant use this arguement for the premiership? anyways gotta sleep
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