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username9816
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#1001
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#1001
(Original post by Percy)
Did Arsenal get far in the Champions League? They were lucky to even get to the quarter finals- Celta Vigo aren't exactly worldbeaters. Yeah, I am aware of the Premiership table. Arsenal have been more consistent, doesn't mean they are miles ahead of United because they can beat Wolves and Man City. Doesn't do any harm that David Dein is a senior figure at the FA either. Nice one lads.
Of course, Arsenal beating crap teams by 5-0 scorelines is a fabulous argument for then saying "they are best in europe". LOL. :rolleyes:
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username9816
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#1002
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#1002
(Original post by Gimp)
Capitalising your arguments does not validate them. Sorry.
I agree, but that isn't relevant. My argument is still better because my comparisons between Arsenal and other european teams is made when looking at a consistent format of competition.

Arsenals' Prem league performance compared to Real's spanish league performance is not a consistent format to make any judgements about who the best European team is.
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#1003
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#1003
(Original post by bono)
I agree, but that isn't relevant. My argument is still better because my comparisons between Arsenal and other european teams is made when looking at a consistent format of competition.

Arsenals' Prem league performance compared to Real's spanish league performance is not a consistent format to make any judgements about who the best European team is.
You keep bringing up results from previous seasons, which are moot in a debate as to whether Arsenal are the best team in Europe now.

I'm not arguing anyway, just pointing out the flaws in yours. Piginapoke already won that argument; it is so last night.
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Percy
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#1004
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#1004
(Original post by bono)
I agree, but that isn't relevant. My argument is still better because my comparisons between Arsenal and other european teams is made when looking at a consistent format of competition.

Arsenals' Prem league performance compared to Real's spanish league performance is not a consistent format to make any judgements about who the best European team is.
Just give him negative rep.
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DuncanM
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#1005
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#1005
(Original post by bono)
I agree, but that isn't relevant. My argument is still better because my comparisons between Arsenal and other european teams is made when looking at a consistent format of competition.

Arsenals' Prem league performance compared to Real's spanish league performance is not a consistent format to make any judgements about who the best European team is.
You say that Arsenals and Reals league form is irrelevant as they don't play the sae teams. But Real didn't play Chelsea and Arsenal didn't play Monaco so how are these results relevant? And arsenal haven't played AC Milan or Real in recent times so tese comparisons cannot be made. Even if they did it wouldn't exactly be conclusive, by that logic Fulham are a better team than Man United and much as I hate Man U not even I would claim that
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username9816
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#1006
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#1006
(Original post by DuncanM)
You say that Arsenals and Reals league form is irrelevant as they don't play the sae teams. But Real didn't play Chelsea and Arsenal didn't play Monaco so how are these results relevant? And arsenal haven't played AC Milan or Real in recent times so tese comparisons cannot be made. Even if they did it wouldn't exactly be conclusive, by that logic Fulham are a better team than Man United and much as I hate Man U not even I would claim that
OK, some people just don't get the message.

Nobody can guarantee that a certain team is best in Europe. It is to an extent, a matter of opinion.

However, the champions league is a tournament for the elague winners and runner-sup from each country; hence thebest european teams are competing, there can't be much doubt there.

Hence, it makes sense to judge who the best team is by looking at track records and head to head results in the champions league, where these best teams gather and compete. The format of competition in order to make comparisons and judgements is the same for all of these 'best european team contenders' - The cahmpions league.
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mc_watson87
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#1007
Report Thread starter 15 years ago
#1007
The champions league over a few seasons can be used as a rough estimate of teams potential. But for the case of Arsenal it is very hard to judge, having recently (recent in terms of seasons) reached there peak in perfomances. The only real way to compare the teams effectively would be to have a European Super league. With 2 games against everyone. As Arsene used to keep sugestin in vain.
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username9816
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#1008
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#1008
(Original post by Gimp)
You keep bringing up results from previous seasons, which are moot in a debate as to whether Arsenal are the best team in Europe now.

I'm not arguing anyway, just pointing out the flaws in yours. Piginapoke already won that argument; it is so last night.
Piginapoke lost the argument completely. He used an inconsistent format of competition to base his opinions on who the best European team is. If you choose to ignore this, your problem.

That flaw means that his argument has less bearing than mine. I based my opinions on the CL - A consistent format of competition to make judgements as these teams are playing eachother..

It's a simple concept really. think about it.
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DuncanM
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#1009
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#1009
It is a matter of opinion so theres no point everyone getting so worked up about it. Lets move on.

So, who do you think is going to get 4th place
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username9816
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#1010
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#1010
(Original post by DuncanM)
It is a matter of opinion so theres no point everyone getting so worked up about it. Lets move on.

So, who do you think is going to get 4th place
It is, but my opinion is less flawed and more valid. This doesn't mean to say it is 100% correct or anything, but at least the source of my opinions being made is suitable.
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mc_watson87
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#1011
Report Thread starter 15 years ago
#1011
(Original post by DuncanM)
It is a matter of opinion so theres no point everyone getting so worked up about it. Lets move on.

So, who do you think is going to get 4th place
Newcastle. Bad start, since then though have been gettin better and better (if slowly).
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Percy
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#1012
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#1012
(Original post by DuncanM)
It is a matter of opinion so theres no point everyone getting so worked up about it. Lets move on.

So, who do you think is going to get 4th place
Hopefully Liverpool so Houllier can keep his job and preside over another few season of underachievement. In a couple of years you'll be happy to even be in the Premiership!
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DuncanM
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#1013
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#1013
If it was a choice between 4th and Houllier or 5th and no Houllier that would be a tough one but it seems as ifhe'll stay even if we come 5th :confused:

Don't know what they're putting in the chairmans tea :mad:
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Percy
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#1014
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#1014
(Original post by DuncanM)
If it was a choice between 4th and Houllier or 5th and no Houllier that would be a tough one but it seems as ifhe'll stay even if we come 5th :confused:

Don't know what they're putting in the chairmans tea :mad:
Who would you like instead? Martin O'Neill?
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DuncanM
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#1015
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#1015
He's be my first choice. follow Celtic when I'm in Scotland and he's worked wonders on a shoestring. Mourinho would be interesting but a bit of an unknown quantity, and he's have to leave his diving in Portugal.

Wenger would be nice aswell
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Percy
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#1016
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#1016
(Original post by DuncanM)
He's be my first choice. follow Celtic when I'm in Scotland and he's worked wonders on a shoestring. Mourinho would be interesting but a bit of an unknown quantity, and he's have to leave his diving in Portugal.

Wenger would be nice aswell
I rekon O'Neill would choose Liverpool over Chelsea. Would be given more time to win things. Mourinho definitely wants to manage in England.
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TheWolf
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#1017
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#1017
good luck to u gunners tonight against leeds today should be a gd match :cool:
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Dil
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#1018
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#1018
(Original post by piginapoke)
The trouble with you is that your insufferable arrogance is compelling you to repeat the same old crap time after time. You say you use the CL to make judgements, however you also say Real are better than Arsenal. How can you make that call as the two teams have no played each other this season and were both knocked out at the same stage? You can't, so you return to harping on about previous seasons, which are completely and utterly irrelevant. Surely even you can see this, so I assume you just don't want to accept the fact. Lets apply this logic to other things. When I were 2 years old I was 10 or something and could tie my shoelaces better than you. Using your logic, I am better at tying shoelaces than you. So you see, when things change over time, it is pointless using historical data to back up an argument. Football teams change over time. It is pointless using historical data to judge a team. Liverpool would be the best English team, and Sunderland the 7th best. It doesn't work, get it?
I don't understand the problem... im not saying that football teams dont change over time but generally statistics from the past are quite useful. Nowadays, commentators spit out the stats by the dozen during a match and they are part of the game!
Although, you can't base arguments completely on statistics, they do often offer guidance if you are looking to make predictions.
Obviously there is no point in looking at figures from 50 years ago or even 10 years ago but if you look at a team's recent performances (i.e, last 3 seasons) in a given competition, patterns do begin to emerge. This is because teams won't evolve completely and will be based among the same core of players (Chelsea dont count :rolleyes: )!
For example, very few would bet against Arsenal reaching the F.A Cup quarter finals next season because they seem to have developed a knack of winning in said competition... same for United, this season was the first time in 8 seasons or sumat ridiculous like that, that they havent reached the Champs' League quarters...
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TheWolf
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#1019
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#1019
piginapoke - you were saying that the best teams wins the premiership my argument: if arsenal wins by 6 points thats the equivalent of chelsea losing 2 games because of off days..thats your arguement for losing the champions league how come Chelsea cant use this arguement for the premiership?
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Dil
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#1020
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#1020
(Original post by piginapoke)
Why don't Chelsea count? They disprove the whole thing

The thing about Arsenal is their game never seemed to be suited to playing European football despite how good they were against English teams. They style has subtly changed though, and this season it was a lot more effective than before. Ironic it took an English team to knock them out!

If you wanted to see who truly was the best team in Europe you'd have to have a season-long league rather than the knockout format. But the knockout format is more exciting!

Also, you cannot judge a team based on their performances against one specific team because of playing styles as mentioned above - some styles are more effective against some teams than others. Examples being some teams that just like to get 0-0 draws (Birmingham) or a team that likes to attack (Man City); some teams will do well against one and badly against the other.
For a team to prove that they really are the best team in Europe, they would have to win the Champions League twice on the trot... otherwise it is very hard to decide- all teams have their strong points and weaknesses!

The knockout system IS very exciting, very predictable also... I think that this talk (and the early exit of the European 'Giants') has only come about because of the abolishment of the second group stage! Normally, the second group stage would have been the killer for the likes of Porto, Monaco as their squads are weaker. They would have to consistently etch out the results that knocked the likes Real and United out of the competition as well. And of course this would have been over a period of 6 games rather than two!
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