The Ultimate Football Thread Watch

This discussion is closed.
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1021
Report 15 years ago
#1021
(Original post by Dil)
For a team to prove that they really are the best team in Europe, they would have to win the Champions League twice on the trot... otherwise it is very hard to decide- all teams have their strong points and weaknesses!

The knockout system IS very exciting, very predictable also... I think that this talk (and the early exit of the European 'Giants') has only come about because of the abolishment of the second group stage! Normally, the second group stage would have been the killer for the likes of Porto, Monaco as their squads are weaker. They would have to consistently etch out the results that knocked the likes Real and United out of the competition as well. And of course this would have been over a period of 6 games rather than two!
as i said it depends how you define ' the best team ', piginapoke obviously considers consistency the most important determinant.
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1022
Report 15 years ago
#1022
(Original post by piginapoke)
That only happens if you take individual games into account. Of course the entire league is just a whole bunch of individual games, but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense. The league is won or lost over the entire season not on one game. It only appears like that because its an ongoing thing progressing one game at a time.

If Chelsea finish the league 6 points behind Arsenal then they haven't performed as well over the entire season, as they've dropped 6 more points. Its no good to call them 'off days', they still count towards a team's points total. Arsenal have had fewer off days, therefore they have more points and as such have been better this season in the league.

ok fair enough..but offdays are ok in champions league because each team plays less games in champions league than in the premiership?
0
username9816
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1023
Report 15 years ago
#1023
(Original post by piginapoke)
The trouble with you is that your insufferable arrogance is compelling you to repeat the same old crap time after time. You say you use the CL to make judgements, however you also say Real are better than Arsenal. How can you make that call as the two teams have no played each other this season and were both knocked out at the same stage? You can't, so you return to harping on about previous seasons, which are completely and utterly irrelevant. Surely even you can see this, so I assume you just don't want to accept the fact. Lets apply this logic to other things. When I were 2 years old I was 10 or something and could tie my shoelaces better than you. Using your logic, I am better at tying shoelaces than you. So you see, when things change over time, it is pointless using historical data to back up an argument. Football teams change over time. It is pointless using historical data to judge a team. Liverpool would be the best English team, and Sunderland the 7th best. It doesn't work, get it?
It doesn't work perfectly, I agree, but at least the format of competition is the same to make judgements.

None of your sources of judgement have this. How can premiership performance be an indicator of position in Europe? This si my point. By looking at Champion's league info and results this season, one can at least see how the teams get on or have got on against eachother.

It is the top European teams only who get to compete against eachother in this.

You complain about my opinion - My point is that at least I refer to a competition where they get to play eachother.

The premiership doesn't enable you to make any viable opinions. You mainly used arsenal's preimiership performances and FA Cup etc. (in england), and this is where the flaw lies.

BTW: When I say recent record, I mean in the last 2/3 seasons, not "10 years ago". The changes over this period are marginal when talking about who the best team is - The contenders are the same.

Real, AC, juventus, Arsenal, Man U and so on.

And this is another thing - By dimissing their record in recent years, you must obviously be taking note of tehir eprformances this season to base your opinion.

Prem performance this season (alone) is not enough to say that Arsenal are the best in Europe. Without being a footy fan, I can safely say this.
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1024
Report 15 years ago
#1024
(Original post by piginapoke)
I don't follow you...

I mean 'off days' in the CL get you knocked out in the knockout stages whereas in the league they are just part of a season, nothing to do with how many games there are. A knockout competition can be seen as a succession of stages, the league must be seen as a whole not individual matches.
ok.. i gotcha - i think what you say is fair enough but with your theory it will be impossible to compare yourself with foreign teams...the only way you can test how good you are in europe is playing in the champions league...
0
Dil
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#1025
Report 15 years ago
#1025
(Original post by piginapoke)
But given that a team can win the CL without being the best team in europe, the same thing could possibly happen two seasons on the trot. Unlikely to be chance though, but we still can't say definitively that that team would be the best.
You seriously think that would happen? Last team to do so was the Milan team of 88/89 which was an exceptional team! I dont think that a team could win the champs league without being one of the top 10 teams in Europe.. is that a reasonable statement?
nice bit of stats for you piggy:
http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/UCL...ics/index.html
the same names keep cropping up!
(Original post by piginapoke)
Then why not make it entirely a league with no knockout stage at all? Why not - because that would make it boring. Leagues are often over well before the end of the season. With the old style 2-stage league thing the quarter finalists were relatively easy to predict with few surprises. Its not good to be predictable in football, people want variety.
That would be great for the fans but the G14 wouldnt let UEFA do it... it would result in a massive drop in income for the clubs and would leave the bigger clubs more susceptible to veing knocked out by 'unknown entities'!
0
....
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#1026
Report 15 years ago
#1026
You're going to have to agree to disagree methinks.
0
username9816
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1027
Report 15 years ago
#1027
(Original post by piginapoke)
That only happens if you take individual games into account. Of course the entire league is just a whole bunch of individual games, but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense. The league is won or lost over the entire season not on one game. It only appears like that because its an ongoing thing progressing one game at a time.

If Chelsea finish the league 6 points behind Arsenal then they haven't performed as well over the entire season, as they've dropped 6 more points. Its no good to call them 'off days', they still count towards a team's points total. Arsenal have had fewer off days, therefore they have more points and as such have been better this season in the league.
Why?

What if Arsenal had no "bad days" that season and Chelsea did infact have 2.

Or more to the point: Chelsea were skanked by the ref twice and Arsenal weren't?

"but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense." - Why is it nonsense? It is one blip, whatsever reason that may be, which cost them the league. In the same way that this "1 blip" cost tehm the champion's league.

The only difference is that you choose to view the prem league differently to the champions league - But the principle of "off days being costly is still the same."

Consider: Arsenal and Chelsea win every game all season. It comes down to one match.

it is 0-0, 20 mins left. Chelsea have a goal dissalowed which should have stood, clearly - they were robbed. 1 minute left, arsenal score a goal and it stood, even though it was clearly a foul on the keeper. Arsenal win 1-0.

2 Games left, they both win. Arsenal win by 3 points. (league). So, Arsenal, by your train of thought, ahve performed consistently better over the season?

No -it was 1 game, 1 blip - whether it be the ref or a team or a player.

Same thing can be said for the CL - One blip.
0
username9816
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1028
Report 15 years ago
#1028
Funny - Arsenal haven't reached a champion's league semi-final in the last 3 years, yet you think they are the best in Europe.
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1029
Report 15 years ago
#1029
(Original post by bono)
Funny - Arsenal haven't reached a champion's league semi-final in the last 3 years, yet you think they are the best in Europe.
The only way you can compare with the best teams at the moment is playing in the Champions League ... noone can change this fact atm
0
username9816
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1030
Report 15 years ago
#1030
(Original post by TheWolf)
The only way you can compare with the best teams at the moment is playing in the Champions League ... noone can change this fact atm
Exactly.

It's not his opinion that bothers me, it's the source.

I use the champions league to base my opinions - A competition where the best European teams compete for the biggest prize.

He uses the premiership, where the majority of teams act as whipping boys, and this format of competition being inconsistent for when making comparisons between an english team (arsenal) to an italian team (AC), for example.

This is the key point.
0
username9816
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1031
Report 15 years ago
#1031
(Original post by Gimp)
You're going to have to agree to disagree methinks.
Seeing arguing/debating in a negative light when it clearly isn't abusive in any form, does you no favours.
0
....
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#1032
Report 15 years ago
#1032
And in the Spanish/Italian leagues (and all the other Euro leagues) every team is of exceptional quality? No.

Using Premiership form, especially in a year where all the "best" teams have failed to perform in the Champions' League (look at the semi-final line up!), is perfectly acceptable.

Negative light? What are you talking about, Bono? You are recycling the same argument (not just you everyone is) and it is neither productive nor interesting debate.
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1033
Report 15 years ago
#1033
(Original post by Gimp)
And in the Spanish/Italian leagues (and all the other Euro leagues) every team is of exceptional quality? No.

Using Premiership form, especially in a year where all the "best" teams have failed to perform in the Champions' League (look at the semi-final line up!), is perfectly acceptable.
lol no its not acceptable - it would be if all of the best teams are in the premiership! but real madrid, ac milan...etc are not!
0
DuncanM
Badges: 0
#1034
Report 15 years ago
#1034
(Original post by piginapoke)
In the 70s weren't Liverpool winning euro cups but not the english league?
We won the league in 76, 77, and 79 (not to mention 79/80)

So on past form we're the best team in England! Hooray, we'll plan the open top bus parade immediatley
0
......?
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#1035
Report 15 years ago
#1035
Leeds to win 3-2
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1036
Report 15 years ago
#1036
(Original post by silent p......?)
Leeds to win 3-2
lol i hope so!
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1037
Report 15 years ago
#1037
(Original post by TheWolf)
lol i hope so!
pires 1-0 already (signature pires curler) ..it looks like another arsenal 4 leeds 1 game
0
....
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#1038
Report 15 years ago
#1038
I despise Andy Gray.
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#1039
Report 15 years ago
#1039
(Original post by Gimp)
I despise Andy Gray.
what did he say this time
0
....
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#1040
Report 15 years ago
#1040
(Original post by TheWolf)
what did he say this time
Everything

2-0
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Which party will you be voting for in the General Election?

Conservatives (183)
18.69%
Labour (501)
51.17%
Liberal Democrats (134)
13.69%
Green Party (55)
5.62%
Brexit Party (15)
1.53%
Independent Group for Change (Change UK) (4)
0.41%
SNP (15)
1.53%
Plaid Cymru (4)
0.41%
Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) (0)
0%
Sinn Fein (7)
0.72%
SDLP (1)
0.1%
Ulster Unionist (4)
0.41%
UKIP (10)
1.02%
Other (10)
1.02%
None (36)
3.68%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise