The Ultimate Football Thread

piginapoke

That only happens if you take individual games into account. Of course the entire league is just a whole bunch of individual games, but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense. The league is won or lost over the entire season not on one game. It only appears like that because its an ongoing thing progressing one game at a time.

If Chelsea finish the league 6 points behind Arsenal then they haven't performed as well over the entire season, as they've dropped 6 more points. Its no good to call them 'off days', they still count towards a team's points total. Arsenal have had fewer off days, therefore they have more points and as such have been better this season in the league.

ok fair enough..but offdays are ok in champions league because each team plays less games in champions league than in the premiership?

Reply 1022

piginapoke

The trouble with you is that your insufferable arrogance is compelling you to repeat the same old crap time after time. You say you use the CL to make judgements, however you also say Real are better than Arsenal. How can you make that call as the two teams have no played each other this season and were both knocked out at the same stage? You can't, so you return to harping on about previous seasons, which are completely and utterly irrelevant. Surely even you can see this, so I assume you just don't want to accept the fact. Lets apply this logic to other things. When I were 2 years old I was 10 or something and could tie my shoelaces better than you. Using your logic, I am better at tying shoelaces than you. So you see, when things change over time, it is pointless using historical data to back up an argument. Football teams change over time. It is pointless using historical data to judge a team. Liverpool would be the best English team, and Sunderland the 7th best. It doesn't work, get it?

It doesn't work perfectly, I agree, but at least the format of competition is the same to make judgements.

None of your sources of judgement have this. How can premiership performance be an indicator of position in Europe? This si my point. By looking at Champion's league info and results this season, one can at least see how the teams get on or have got on against eachother.

It is the top European teams only who get to compete against eachother in this.

You complain about my opinion - My point is that at least I refer to a competition where they get to play eachother.

The premiership doesn't enable you to make any viable opinions. You mainly used arsenal's preimiership performances and FA Cup etc. (in england), and this is where the flaw lies.

BTW: When I say recent record, I mean in the last 2/3 seasons, not "10 years ago". The changes over this period are marginal when talking about who the best team is - The contenders are the same.

Real, AC, juventus, Arsenal, Man U and so on.

And this is another thing - By dimissing their record in recent years, you must obviously be taking note of tehir eprformances this season to base your opinion.

Prem performance this season (alone) is not enough to say that Arsenal are the best in Europe. Without being a footy fan, I can safely say this.

Reply 1023

piginapoke

I don't follow you...

I mean 'off days' in the CL get you knocked out in the knockout stages whereas in the league they are just part of a season, nothing to do with how many games there are. A knockout competition can be seen as a succession of stages, the league must be seen as a whole not individual matches.

ok.. i gotcha - i think what you say is fair enough but with your theory it will be impossible to compare yourself with foreign teams...the only way you can test how good you are in europe is playing in the champions league...

Reply 1024

Dil

piginapoke

But given that a team can win the CL without being the best team in europe, the same thing could possibly happen two seasons on the trot. Unlikely to be chance though, but we still can't say definitively that that team would be the best.

You seriously think that would happen? Last team to do so was the Milan team of 88/89 which was an exceptional team! I dont think that a team could win the champs league without being one of the top 10 teams in Europe.. is that a reasonable statement?
nice bit of stats for you piggy:
http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/UCL/AllTimeStatistics/index.html
the same names keep cropping up! :wink:

piginapoke

Then why not make it entirely a league with no knockout stage at all? Why not - because that would make it boring. Leagues are often over well before the end of the season. With the old style 2-stage league thing the quarter finalists were relatively easy to predict with few surprises. Its not good to be predictable in football, people want variety.

That would be great for the fans but the G14 wouldnt let UEFA do it... it would result in a massive drop in income for the clubs and would leave the bigger clubs more susceptible to veing knocked out by 'unknown entities'!

Reply 1025

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1

You're going to have to agree to disagree methinks.

Reply 1026

piginapoke

That only happens if you take individual games into account. Of course the entire league is just a whole bunch of individual games, but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense. The league is won or lost over the entire season not on one game. It only appears like that because its an ongoing thing progressing one game at a time.

If Chelsea finish the league 6 points behind Arsenal then they haven't performed as well over the entire season, as they've dropped 6 more points. Its no good to call them 'off days', they still count towards a team's points total. Arsenal have had fewer off days, therefore they have more points and as such have been better this season in the league.

Why?

What if Arsenal had no "bad days" that season and Chelsea did infact have 2.

Or more to the point: Chelsea were skanked by the ref twice and Arsenal weren't?

"but you have to just view the season as a whole without looking at individual results. Otherwise you end up with stuff like "If only the ref had given us that decision we would have won the league", which is nonsense." - Why is it nonsense? It is one blip, whatsever reason that may be, which cost them the league. In the same way that this "1 blip" cost tehm the champion's league.

The only difference is that you choose to view the prem league differently to the champions league - But the principle of "off days being costly is still the same."

Consider: Arsenal and Chelsea win every game all season. It comes down to one match.

it is 0-0, 20 mins left. Chelsea have a goal dissalowed which should have stood, clearly - they were robbed. 1 minute left, arsenal score a goal and it stood, even though it was clearly a foul on the keeper. Arsenal win 1-0.

2 Games left, they both win. Arsenal win by 3 points. (league). So, Arsenal, by your train of thought, ahve performed consistently better over the season?

No -it was 1 game, 1 blip - whether it be the ref or a team or a player.

Same thing can be said for the CL - One blip.

Reply 1027

Funny - Arsenal haven't reached a champion's league semi-final in the last 3 years, yet you think they are the best in Europe.

Reply 1028

bono

Funny - Arsenal haven't reached a champion's league semi-final in the last 3 years, yet you think they are the best in Europe.

The only way you can compare with the best teams at the moment is playing in the Champions League ... noone can change this fact atm

Reply 1029

TheWolf

The only way you can compare with the best teams at the moment is playing in the Champions League ... noone can change this fact atm

Exactly.

It's not his opinion that bothers me, it's the source.

I use the champions league to base my opinions - A competition where the best European teams compete for the biggest prize.

He uses the premiership, where the majority of teams act as whipping boys, and this format of competition being inconsistent for when making comparisons between an english team (arsenal) to an italian team (AC), for example.

This is the key point.

Reply 1030

Gimp

You're going to have to agree to disagree methinks.

Seeing arguing/debating in a negative light when it clearly isn't abusive in any form, does you no favours.

Reply 1031

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1

And in the Spanish/Italian leagues (and all the other Euro leagues) every team is of exceptional quality? No.

Using Premiership form, especially in a year where all the "best" teams have failed to perform in the Champions' League (look at the semi-final line up!), is perfectly acceptable.

Negative light? What are you talking about, Bono? You are recycling the same argument (not just you everyone is) and it is neither productive nor interesting debate.

Reply 1032