Would this be committing fraud on train fare? Watch

Gondur
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This is purely hypothetical and I advocate the importance of buying train tickets to fair dodgers. This thought occurred to me today:

Imagine I wanted to travel from Sheffield to Oxford by train. The standard off peak price for a return is £78.80 which to most people is a lot of money for a day trip to Oxford to see friends/family back at home. Now Oxford train station has ticket barriers whereas Sheffield doesn't for two reasons. 1) The train station is a grade 1 listed building 2) There is a walkway which the general public use that links Sheffield Station to an independent tram line and public footpath. It is only possible to access the tram line and footpath by walking on a bridge over the station platforms. Given that train travellers and non-train travellers both use this bridge, it would be impossible to implement ticket barriers at Sheffield Station and a recent government proposal was rejected because the station is a listed building.

Now there is a train which goes via Sheffield to Oxford. The crucial thing is that for this plan to work, the train mustn't begin in Sheffield. This is to avoid everyone on the train having to show their tickets for inspection. My friend has travelled between York (another station close to Sheffield also without ticket barriers) for over one year without purchasing a ticket. This is because the train originated in say Newcastle and has stopped at say 3 or 4 station before arriving at York. So when the inspector asks for tickets from York please, my friend sits back and the inspector walks straight past because his assumption is: He probably got on before York. Now the inspector cannot monitor everyone on the train especially at peak times when there's a lot of passenger congestion. The inspector can only ask for everyone's ticket after the station of origin. After that, the inspector relies on you to bee honest and show your ticket.

This is where the term fare dodger comes from. Fare dodgers are people who take advantage of flawed security measures like the absence of ticket barriers at stations.

So going back to my trip from Sheffield to Oxford. Oxford has ticket barriers which means I have to insert a valid ticket into them to pass. They are monitored by CCTV and station personal at all times. You cannot climb over the barriers because station security are standing and looking at all times. Now this train I get on at Sheffield will have originated in Newcastle. It will have stopped at 3/4 stations on arriving in Sheffield. Now this is where the fraud comes in: Given that I must purchase a ticket in order to pass the barriers at Oxford, it could be possible to purchase a return ticket from Banbury to Oxford. Now Banbury is one station away from Oxford and my train always stops there. Compare the prices: It costs £78.80 from Sheffield to Oxford. It costs £6.00 from Banbury to Oxford (both return tickets on the same day).

Theoretically I could board the train at Sheffield and sit there holding a pre purchased ticket from Banbury to Oxford costing only £6.00 because the inspector will have already assumed I'd boarded at one of the stations prior to Sheffield. So I sit on the train and travel about 2 hours to Oxford without a normal ticket inspection. HOWEVER:

The inspector sometimes asks all passengers on board to show their train tickets. Now this has never happened to my friend aka 'the fare dodger' from York to Sheffield. The train also stops at Doncaster and possibly Leeds in between so this just works in my friend's favour. Given that the journey time from Sheffield to Oxford is around 2 hours, there is a strong possibility that the inspector will ask for all passengers to show their tickets. The normal thing for him to do would be to ask for your ticket after each station as I've explained.

Now if he asks this then there's nothing I can do but pay 'some' fare. The amount of fare I have to pay depends on at which time in the journey he asks to see all tickets. If he asks towards the end of the journey, then I can convince him that I boarded at the last station but [lost my tickets via some unfortunate event]. So even then I beat the system and avoid paying the full £78.80 BUT this whole plan is very risky. Should he ask towards the beginning of the journey RELATIVE TO ME. The train had originated in Newcastle and so my beginning is obviously going to be different to the inspector's begging. Even so, if he asks to see all tickets 2 stations after Sheffield at Birmingham then I'd have to pay a pretty hefty price from Birmingham to Oxford.

Do you understand what I'm trying to explain here about fare dodging big prices PROVIDED the train does not originate from the station at which you board.
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Genocidal
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It's just easier to buy a ticket and avoid the hassle.
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Add!ction
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Just be aware that the ticket inspectors aren't stupid and may be wise to you and the penalty fare can be twice the single fare.
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lillith
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I know it maybe beside the point, but have you considered getting on a coach (National Express) I have done this from Manchester to London it was a lot cheaper.

Journeys departing on Friday, 11 April 2014
01:35
11/04/14 SHEFFIELD (Coach Station) LONDON (Victoria Coach Station) 06:20
11/04/14 4h 45m 0info
£18.70
06:15
11/04/14 SHEFFIELD (Coach Station) LONDON (Victoria Coach Station) 10:10
11/04/14 3h 55m 0info
£14.70
07:30
11/04/14 SHEFFIELD (Coach Station) LONDON (Victoria Coach Station) 11:45
11/04/14 4h 15m 0info
£9.00
08:30
11/04/14 SHEFFIELD (Coach Station) LONDON (Victoria Coach Station) 12:25
11/04/14 3h 55m 0info
£14.70
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lillith
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Sorry that was to London, but you get my drift.
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Gondur
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(Original post by Genocidal)
It's just easier to buy a ticket and avoid the hassle.
This isn't really hassle.
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jay2013
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Why does the government subsidy the PRIVATE railways with taxpayers money is the better question!
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Gondur
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(Original post by Add!ction)
Just be aware that the ticket inspectors aren't stupid and may be wise to you and the penalty fare can be twice the single fare.
There's a lot of people travelling on these main line routes which means I blend in especially at peak hours when tickets are double the price! The inspector doesn't individually ask to see everyone's ticket. He relies on you to be truthful and show him your ticket. If you don't show it, he won't ask because he doesn't see you. (this won't work if the train originated at the station you boarded it on however).

You're right. It's easier to buy the ticket and have a pleasant journey as opposed to sitting in fear because of being fined. But really? How common are fines now? I've told inspectors some false story about me losing the train tickets and they've laughed and happily allowed me to buy a standard ticket without incurring any fine.
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lottie1992
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I regularly go between Oxford and Bristol or Oxford and London and I regularly get asked for my ticket, a lot of the time the inspectors wait until 2/3 of the journey to come around and then they ask everyone to show their tickets, not just those who got on at x station. Also my ticket has been checked twice in one journey before. So whoever your fare dodging friend is, they've had an incredibly lucky escape and will probably get caught, your theory is not to be relied upon at all.
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Knalchemist
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Oh all the trains I've been on, when an inspector has got on, they ask to se EVERYONES ticket. Not just a select few.
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Hedgeman49
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Ticket inspectors also have incredibly good memories and will usually be able to spot people who have got on the train since the last inspection.

This is a really stupid idea, I make probably eight 2-3 hour train journeys a month and my tickets will probably be checked on at least six of them.
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balotelli12
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To answer your missive it is fraud
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doodle_333
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(Original post by Gondur)
There's a lot of people travelling on these main line routes which means I blend in especially at peak hours when tickets are double the price! The inspector doesn't individually ask to see everyone's ticket. He relies on you to be truthful and show him your ticket. If you don't show it, he won't ask because he doesn't see you. (this won't work if the train originated at the station you boarded it on however).

You're right. It's easier to buy the ticket and have a pleasant journey as opposed to sitting in fear because of being fined. But really? How common are fines now? I've told inspectors some false story about me losing the train tickets and they've laughed and happily allowed me to buy a standard ticket without incurring any fine.
thats as may be, but I've seen people being given hefty penalty fares when to my eyes they looked very genuine in their mistakes, and I've had a ticket officer wake me up when I had a nap on a train to check my ticket, and the point in the journey was similar to when you were talking about... you proabbly would get away with it quite often, but the penalty fare can be a lot so I would just buy a ticket

if you really want to dodge the fare lock yourself in a toilet, although again, I've seen ticket officers open the doors to force people out to pay
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Mad Vlad
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(Original post by Gondur)
This is purely hypothetical and I advocate the importance of buying train tickets to fair dodgers. This thought occurred to me today:

Imagine I wanted to travel from Sheffield to Oxford by train. The standard off peak price for a return is £78.80 which to most people is a lot of money for a day trip to Oxford to see friends/family back at home. Now Oxford train station has ticket barriers whereas Sheffield doesn't for two reasons. 1) The train station is a grade 1 listed building 2) There is a walkway which the general public use that links Sheffield Station to an independent tram line and public footpath. It is only possible to access the tram line and footpath by walking on a bridge over the station platforms. Given that train travellers and non-train travellers both use this bridge, it would be impossible to implement ticket barriers at Sheffield Station and a recent government proposal was rejected because the station is a listed building.

Now there is a train which goes via Sheffield to Oxford. The crucial thing is that for this plan to work, the train mustn't begin in Sheffield. This is to avoid everyone on the train having to show their tickets for inspection. My friend has travelled between York (another station close to Sheffield also without ticket barriers) for over one year without purchasing a ticket. This is because the train originated in say Newcastle and has stopped at say 3 or 4 station before arriving at York. So when the inspector asks for tickets from York please, my friend sits back and the inspector walks straight past because his assumption is: He probably got on before York. Now the inspector cannot monitor everyone on the train especially at peak times when there's a lot of passenger congestion. The inspector can only ask for everyone's ticket after the station of origin. After that, the inspector relies on you to bee honest and show your ticket.

This is where the term fare dodger comes from. Fare dodgers are people who take advantage of flawed security measures like the absence of ticket barriers at stations.

So going back to my trip from Sheffield to Oxford. Oxford has ticket barriers which means I have to insert a valid ticket into them to pass. They are monitored by CCTV and station personal at all times. You cannot climb over the barriers because station security are standing and looking at all times. Now this train I get on at Sheffield will have originated in Newcastle. It will have stopped at 3/4 stations on arriving in Sheffield. Now this is where the fraud comes in: Given that I must purchase a ticket in order to pass the barriers at Oxford, it could be possible to purchase a return ticket from Banbury to Oxford. Now Banbury is one station away from Oxford and my train always stops there. Compare the prices: It costs £78.80 from Sheffield to Oxford. It costs £6.00 from Banbury to Oxford (both return tickets on the same day).

Theoretically I could board the train at Sheffield and sit there holding a pre purchased ticket from Banbury to Oxford costing only £6.00 because the inspector will have already assumed I'd boarded at one of the stations prior to Sheffield. So I sit on the train and travel about 2 hours to Oxford without a normal ticket inspection. HOWEVER:

The inspector sometimes asks all passengers on board to show their train tickets. Now this has never happened to my friend aka 'the fare dodger' from York to Sheffield. The train also stops at Doncaster and possibly Leeds in between so this just works in my friend's favour. Given that the journey time from Sheffield to Oxford is around 2 hours, there is a strong possibility that the inspector will ask for all passengers to show their tickets. The normal thing for him to do would be to ask for your ticket after each station as I've explained.

Now if he asks this then there's nothing I can do but pay 'some' fare. The amount of fare I have to pay depends on at which time in the journey he asks to see all tickets. If he asks towards the end of the journey, then I can convince him that I boarded at the last station but [lost my tickets via some unfortunate event]. So even then I beat the system and avoid paying the full £78.80 BUT this whole plan is very risky. Should he ask towards the beginning of the journey RELATIVE TO ME. The train had originated in Newcastle and so my beginning is obviously going to be different to the inspector's begging. Even so, if he asks to see all tickets 2 stations after Sheffield at Birmingham then I'd have to pay a pretty hefty price from Birmingham to Oxford.

Do you understand what I'm trying to explain here about fare dodging big prices PROVIDED the train does not originate from the station at which you board.
Have you paid less than the indicated fare to go from Sheffield to Oxford? Yes? Then you're fare dodging and defrauding the TOCs - something that is subsidised by the honest people paying the proper ticket price that use the railways.
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Slowbro93
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(Original post by Gondur)
This is purely hypothetical and I advocate the importance of buying train tickets to fair dodgers. This thought occurred to me today:

Imagine I wanted to travel from Sheffield to Oxford by train. The standard off peak price for a return is £78.80 which to most people is a lot of money for a day trip to Oxford to see friends/family back at home. Now Oxford train station has ticket barriers whereas Sheffield doesn't for two reasons. 1) The train station is a grade 1 listed building 2) There is a walkway which the general public use that links Sheffield Station to an independent tram line and public footpath. It is only possible to access the tram line and footpath by walking on a bridge over the station platforms. Given that train travellers and non-train travellers both use this bridge, it would be impossible to implement ticket barriers at Sheffield Station and a recent government proposal was rejected because the station is a listed building.

Now there is a train which goes via Sheffield to Oxford. The crucial thing is that for this plan to work, the train mustn't begin in Sheffield. This is to avoid everyone on the train having to show their tickets for inspection. My friend has travelled between York (another station close to Sheffield also without ticket barriers) for over one year without purchasing a ticket. This is because the train originated in say Newcastle and has stopped at say 3 or 4 station before arriving at York. So when the inspector asks for tickets from York please, my friend sits back and the inspector walks straight past because his assumption is: He probably got on before York. Now the inspector cannot monitor everyone on the train especially at peak times when there's a lot of passenger congestion. The inspector can only ask for everyone's ticket after the station of origin. After that, the inspector relies on you to bee honest and show your ticket.

This is where the term fare dodger comes from. Fare dodgers are people who take advantage of flawed security measures like the absence of ticket barriers at stations.

So going back to my trip from Sheffield to Oxford. Oxford has ticket barriers which means I have to insert a valid ticket into them to pass. They are monitored by CCTV and station personal at all times. You cannot climb over the barriers because station security are standing and looking at all times. Now this train I get on at Sheffield will have originated in Newcastle. It will have stopped at 3/4 stations on arriving in Sheffield. Now this is where the fraud comes in: Given that I must purchase a ticket in order to pass the barriers at Oxford, it could be possible to purchase a return ticket from Banbury to Oxford. Now Banbury is one station away from Oxford and my train always stops there. Compare the prices: It costs £78.80 from Sheffield to Oxford. It costs £6.00 from Banbury to Oxford (both return tickets on the same day).

Theoretically I could board the train at Sheffield and sit there holding a pre purchased ticket from Banbury to Oxford costing only £6.00 because the inspector will have already assumed I'd boarded at one of the stations prior to Sheffield. So I sit on the train and travel about 2 hours to Oxford without a normal ticket inspection. HOWEVER:

The inspector sometimes asks all passengers on board to show their train tickets. Now this has never happened to my friend aka 'the fare dodger' from York to Sheffield. The train also stops at Doncaster and possibly Leeds in between so this just works in my friend's favour. Given that the journey time from Sheffield to Oxford is around 2 hours, there is a strong possibility that the inspector will ask for all passengers to show their tickets. The normal thing for him to do would be to ask for your ticket after each station as I've explained.

Now if he asks this then there's nothing I can do but pay 'some' fare. The amount of fare I have to pay depends on at which time in the journey he asks to see all tickets. If he asks towards the end of the journey, then I can convince him that I boarded at the last station but [lost my tickets via some unfortunate event]. So even then I beat the system and avoid paying the full £78.80 BUT this whole plan is very risky. Should he ask towards the beginning of the journey RELATIVE TO ME. The train had originated in Newcastle and so my beginning is obviously going to be different to the inspector's begging. Even so, if he asks to see all tickets 2 stations after Sheffield at Birmingham then I'd have to pay a pretty hefty price from Birmingham to Oxford.

Do you understand what I'm trying to explain here about fare dodging big prices PROVIDED the train does not originate from the station at which you board.
On trains that I've travelled on, I've always seen the ticket inspector always asking everyone for their tickets. And the "idea" that you have coupd be seen as fraud tbh .....
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meenu89
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(Original post by Gondur)
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Just pay the fare.
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Rascacielos
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It's not exactly a novel scenario; I've thought about it before because I'm rarely asked to show my ticket and, like you, usually have to volunteer it. But then I remember the time when someone else got caught and ended up paying £120 for a single ticket from Southampton which should have cost him less than £30, just because he got caught at the beginning of the journey.

I think I'll just pay my fare and get on with it. :-)
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sr90
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(Original post by Gondur)
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Just get the Megabus instead of committing fraud.

National Express can be very cheap too if you look at the right time, i've done London - Manchester for £6 and Leeds - Manchester for £1 before.
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Profesh
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(Original post by Rascacielos)
It's not exactly a novel scenario
Though it probably satisfies the minimum word-count. Bloody hell.
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XMaramena
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Yes, this contravenes the contract that you enter into with the train company when you use their services.
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