Why do we continue to help the Iraqi's become a civilised country? Watch

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byb3
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At the moment I am reaching my tether with a lot of issues in the middle east.

The main issue is the way in which the British press represent the crisis in the UK. All they seem to want to do these days is provoke and shock us. They seem to be very happy to show us all the bad news, but reluctant to show us the good news.

My other issue is why we continue to help the Iraqi's. We (as in the Coalition) pump plenty of money into their restructuring, security and how are we repaid? Suicide bombs, the constant abuse by its barbaric citizens towards our armed forces and civilians.

My feelings at the moment are why don't we just leave and see how they cope without us. They don't deserve our help. It seems that it just is not possible for an Arabic state to live in a democracy. They can't and won't understand it.

Can anybody seriously see Iraq being a civilised country?

Adam
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_ELiTeCaRR_
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(Original post by byb3)
At the moment I am reaching my tether with a lot of issues in the middle east.

The main issue is the way in which the British press represent the crisis in the UK. All they seem to want to do these days is provoke and shock us. They seem to be very happy to show us all the bad <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=news&v=55">news</a>, but reluctant to show us the good <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=news&v=55">news</a>.

My other issue is why we continue to help the Iraqi's. We (as in the Coalition) pump plenty of <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=money&v=55">money</a> into their restructuring, <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=security&v=55">secu rity</a> and how are we repaid? Suicide bombs, the constant abuse by its barbaric citizens towards our armed forces and civilians.

My feelings at the moment are why don't we just leave and see how they cope without us. They don't deserve our help. It seems that it just is not possible for an Arabic state to live in a democracy. They can't and won't understand it.

Can anybody seriously see Iraq being a civilised country?

Adam

i don't think anyone is going to bother answering because it is 12:50 at night
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byb3
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People will still see it tomorrow morning.
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makesomenoise
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Oh, you'll remove all help from a country for the actions of one group...

But what I don't like is the imposing of a democracy in a country whose religious basis prefers an autocracy where the people are all in support of the leader.
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Apollo
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they would plunge into a civil war and end up with someone like saddam back in power.
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username9816
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Because you want to steal their Oil at the expense of others.
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username9816
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(Original post by byb3)
At the moment I am reaching my tether with a lot of issues in the middle east.

The main issue is the way in which the British press represent the crisis in the UK. All they seem to want to do these days is provoke and shock us. They seem to be very happy to show us all the bad news, but reluctant to show us the good news.

My other issue is why we continue to help the Iraqi's. We (as in the Coalition) pump plenty of money into their restructuring, security and how are we repaid? Suicide bombs, the constant abuse by its barbaric citizens towards our armed forces and civilians.

My feelings at the moment are why don't we just leave and see how they cope without us. They don't deserve our help. It seems that it just is not possible for an Arabic state to live in a democracy. They can't and won't understand it.

Can anybody seriously see Iraq being a civilised country?

Adam
Complete Bull.
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Jonatan
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Ok, lets put it this way. How many bomb atacks have you seen? In theory, how many peopel are needed to perform such an atack in a country where weapons and explosives flow pretty freely on the street? Remember that even surgeons had access to AK-47s to protect the hospitals when the looting was at its worst. Now, say some 300 people are atacking the US led Coalition with bombs and suecide atacks. That is more than enough to cause the sort of chaos you see down in Iraq now. However, Iraqs total population is several million. Shall you really withdraw help and support from several million people because you can find a few hundred fanatic lunitics in the country? What if the EU judged britain on the basis of the criminals that do opperate within the borders, and ignored the rest of the population?

I hope we dont have to see more nonsense in this thread now, cus really, the original message is just ignorant. Judging an entire population based on the actions of a small minority is nothing but stupid.
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Carl
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(Original post by _ELiTeCaRR_)
i don't think anyone is going to bother answering because it is 12:50 at night
Well I think thats a awfully negative comment to make.

Personally, I think that now we are in Iraq, we should stay for the long term. The people of Iraq are certainly not barbaric; on the contrary, I feel that for many years they have deserved better. Iraq used to be oil rich, and after years of sanctions, they've been crushed. Its easy to understand why so many of them feel bitter towards the West. Its only right that we help to restore Iraq to what it was.

At the moment I feel that the media greatly misrepresents the situation in Iraq. Sure, its not all great but look what we've acheived: a national police force with increasing powers, the reopening of all schools and hospitals (which are now properly funded), a developing free media and growing provision of basics such as food and water, as well as handing sovereignty over in a matter of months. However, the problem with demonstrating this via the media is how to do it without appearing jingoistic, patting ourselves on the back.

Truth be told, to answer the question in the title, if we desert Iraq again, the consequences will be so dire: the Ba'ath Party could regain control and certainly any new government not backed by us would be undemocratic (although not necessarily unrepresentative), and potentially a breeding ground for anti-Western sentiment. We deserted the Iraqis in the first Gulf War, and we can see now how hated we are by some. We cannot afford to make the same mistake again.

Carl
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byb3
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(Original post by XTinaA)
Oh, you'll remove all help from a country for the actions of one group...

But what I don't like is the imposing of a democracy in a country whose religious basis prefers an autocracy where the people are all in support of the leader.
One group of people? As far as I can tell its fast becoming the mainstream opinion of the Iraqi population. Our forces aren't welcome in most major cities, and are being bombarded daily.

(Original post by Jonatan)
Ok, lets put it this way. How many bomb atacks have you seen? In theory, how many peopel are needed to perform such an atack in a country where weapons and explosives flow pretty freely on the street? Remember that even surgeons had access to AK-47s to protect the hospitals when the looting was at its worst. Now, say some 300 people are atacking the US led Coalition with bombs and suecide atacks. That is more than enough to cause the sort of chaos you see down in Iraq now. However, Iraqs total population is several million. Shall you really withdraw help and support from several million people because you can find a few hundred fanatic lunitics in the country? What if the EU judged britain on the basis of the criminals that do opperate within the borders, and ignored the rest of the population?
I fear it is a far more significant figure than the 300 you state. It is not only the barbarians who make the restructuring of Iraq a harder job, but the general opinion of the population. Now Saddam has been taken away they have decided to follow their new leader, Cleric Al-Sadr who emphasises his hatred of the west quite clearly. If/When he is destroyed how long will it be before a similar leader takes his place?

Iraq is fast becoming an impossible mission. Our mission isn't only to set up a stable government, but to sway public opinion in not just Iraq, but its neighbouring Islamic countries.

Adam
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TheWolf
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(Original post by byb3)
One group of people? As far as I can tell its fast becoming the mainstream opinion of the Iraqi population. Our forces aren't welcome in most major cities, and are being bombarded daily.



I fear it is a far more significant figure than the 300 you state. It is not only the barbarians who make the restructuring of Iraq a harder job, but the general opinion of the population. Now Saddam has been taken away they have decided to follow their new leader, Cleric Al-Sadr who emphasises his hatred of the west quite clearly. If/When he is destroyed how long will it be before a similar leader takes his place?

Iraq is fast becoming an impossible mission. Our mission isn't only to set up a stable government, but to sway public opinion in not just Iraq, but its neighbouring Islamic countries.

Adam
lets blame the americans
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byb3
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(Original post by bono)
Complete Bull.
The art of constructive criticism seems lost on you Bono. I expected more from you.
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username9816
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(Original post by byb3)
The art of constructive criticism seems lost on you Bono. I expected more from you.
Nothing more needs to be said. The situation is self-explanatory.
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llama boy
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(Original post by byb3)
At the moment I am reaching my tether with a lot of issues in the middle east.

The main issue is the way in which the British press represent the crisis in the UK. All they seem to want to do these days is provoke and shock us. They seem to be very happy to show us all the bad news, but reluctant to show us the good news.

My other issue is why we continue to help the Iraqi's. We (as in the Coalition) pump plenty of money into their restructuring, security and how are we repaid?
So you think the UK are there out of the kindness of their hearts?

The UK because it is in the UK's interests to be there, end of.

(Incidentally the money put into reconstruction isn't a gift, it's an investment, hence it is much more in the interests of the UK than it is anyone in Iraq)

Suicide bombs, the constant abuse by its barbaric citizens towards our armed forces and civilians.
Anyone would think we'd just invaded a sovereign country on entirely false pretences for our own gain!

My feelings at the moment are why don't we just leave and see how they cope without us. They don't deserve our help.
Again, this hilarious idea that we're there to "help" them. We won't leave, but it has everything to do with our interests and nothing to do with the Iraqis.

It seems that it just is not possible for an Arabic state to live in a democracy. They can't and won't understand it.

Can anybody seriously see Iraq being a civilised country?
I do love the way that "democracy" is increasingly being defined only within the US/UK interests. Of course, for the Iraqis to resist a brutal colonialist force could only mean they're savages opposed to democracy full stop!
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byb3
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(Original post by llama boy)
The UK because it is in the UK's interests to be there, end of.
(Original post by llama boy)
Incidentally the money put into reconstruction isn't a gift, it's an investment, hence it is much more in the interests of the UK than it is anyone in Iraq
Surely for this investment to pay off Iraq has to become a stable country ran by a stable and trusting government. In that case this is a very long term investment.

During the past year in Iraq, I can't see how much we have really gained from having our armed forces there. Apart from the securing of future oil supplies, most of the major reconstruction contracts have been 'awarded' to US firms. As far as I know only one major engineering contract has been awarded to a British firm.

(Original post by llama boy)
I do love the way that "democracy" is increasingly being defined only within the US/UK interests. Of course, for the Iraqis to resist a brutal colonialist force could only mean they're savages opposed to democracy full stop!
I think this can be directed more towards the US than the UK although we do play a part in this matter. The messages which filter through the media from Islamic extremists appear to be citing hatred more towards the USA than the coalition forces as a whole. So you agree that Iraq is not prepared to be ran by a democratic government?
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zazy
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(Original post by byb3)
At the moment I am reaching my tether with a lot of issues in the middle east.

The main issue is the way in which the British press represent the crisis in the UK. All they seem to want to do these days is provoke and shock us. They seem to be very happy to show us all the bad news, but reluctant to show us the good news.

My other issue is why we continue to help the Iraqi's. We (as in the Coalition) pump plenty of money into their restructuring, security and how are we repaid? Suicide bombs, the constant abuse by its barbaric citizens towards our armed forces and civilians.

My feelings at the moment are why don't we just leave and see how they cope without us. They don't deserve our help. It seems that it just is not possible for an Arabic state to live in a democracy. They can't and won't understand it.

Can anybody seriously see Iraq being a civilised country?

Adam
How do we help a country to become civilised, when they already have their own cultures, traditions and beliefs and would die for them?
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byb3
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(Original post by zazy)
How do we help a country to become civilised, when they already have their own cultures, traditions and beliefs and would die for them?
Indeed. Their culture/religion would not be suited for a democracy and I think their reaction as a whole has shown this. So why do we insist on installing a democratic government there?
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zazy
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(Original post by byb3)
Indeed. Their culture/religion would not be suited for a democracy and I think their reaction as a whole has shown this. So why do we insist on installing a democratic government there?
I really don't understand and wish i did...unless there's an advantage in it for us!!!! :rolleyes:
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username9816
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Oil.
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me!
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(Original post by bono)
Oil.
If the coallition (sp) wanted the oil, they could take it because "might is right", but they haven't and I don't believe they will. If they want the oil then why do they buy it when they could just take it? The soldiers out there in Iraq are not doing it for oil, because believe it or not some people are actually trying to make the world a better place, a more peaceful place.

(BTW: I don't agree with "might is right" but it's reality, if someone's bigger than you they can beat you up, take what they want as is evident from thousands of years of history, take Ireland for example)
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