Why the Arab world has become literally a massive mass grave?

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Syrian Guy
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Seriously why?
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FireGarden
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in b4 islam.
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brap man 420
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islam
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felamaslen
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It all comes down to ideology. The Arab world could be great, if only the people there believed in liberal democracy. Sadly, they do not, in many places.

Dictators are the symptom of a wider malaise, rather than the cause - as evidenced by the arrant failures of Iraq, Libya and now the Egyptian revolution, to bring freedom. Freedom cannot arise when the people do not want it.
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1001Shab
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The Arab world? I think you mean the whole of the Middle East! It's something you should be asking the American government, not us. We know why, you know why. I wonder if we didn't have oil if they would leave the Middle East alone.
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felamaslen
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(Original post by 1001Shab)
The Arab world? I think you mean the whole of the Middle East! It's something you should be asking the American government, not us. We know why, you know why. I wonder if we didn't have oil if they would leave the Middle East alone.
Ah yes, I seem to remember the place being a beacon of democracy and hope for humanity before those darn Americans screwed it all up. </sarcasm>

Are you five?
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Umar1
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Dictators.

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1001Shab
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(Original post by felamaslen)
Ah yes, I seem to remember the place being a beacon of democracy and hope for humanity before those darn Americans screwed it all up. </sarcasm>

Are you five?
I forgive your ignorance but if you acquired any adequate knowledge in relation to the history of that region you would know that the MIDDLE EAST had democracy right before the West ****ed it up! Don't look at the current state and feed me utter nonsense! Go educate yourself before attempting to look like an idiot.

I'll give you an example to initiate your research...Mohammad Mosaddegh was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran. The American CIA and British M16 assassinated him because he nationalised Iran's oil. His government was overthrown and replaced with a Pro-Western government (just before the counter-Islamic revolution of 1979). Women were treated equal to men, had the right to vote in elections, yet at the same time the West didn't even acknowledge the equality between men and women.

Those "darn Americans" are the reason why the Middle East is so ****ed up at present day; the aforementioned was just ONE example.

The conflict between Palestine and Israel – Again, America and Britain. I could go on forever! I'll even write a book on it. You live in a country where you’re granted freedom of speech and access to this sort of information, yet you let television educate you. Then you have Middle Easterners who yearn for the privileges you have in this country, banned from researching this sort of information, yet they know more than people like you. Open your mind before you open your mouth, sunny!

How old are you? 3?
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felamaslen
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(Original post by 1001Shab)
I forgive your ignorance but if you acquired any adequate knowledge in relation to the history of that region you would know that the MIDDLE EAST had democracy right before the West ****ed it up! Don't look at the current state and feed me utter nonsense! Go educate yourself before attempting to look like an idiot.

I'll give you an example to initiate your research...Mohammad Mosaddegh was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran. The American CIA and British M16 assassinated him because he nationalised Iran's oil. His government was overthrown and replaced with a Pro-Western government (just before the counter-Islamic revolution of 1979). Women were treated equal to men, had the right to vote in elections, yet at the same time the West didn't even acknowledge the equality between men and women.

Those "darn Americans" are the reason why the Middle East is so ****ed up at present day; the aforementioned was just ONE example.

The conflict between Palestine and Israel – Again, America and Britain. I could go on forever! I'll even write a book on it. You live in a country where you’re granted freedom of speech and access to this sort of information, yet you let television educate you. Then you have Middle Easterners who yearn for the privileges you have in this country, banned from researching this sort of information, yet they know more than people like you. Open your mind before you open your mouth, sunny!

How old are you? 3?
I actually knew about all of the things you mention, and have talked about them on this very forum with different people. I don't watch television at all, FYI, not that it is relevant.

Iran under the shah was a dictatorship, yes, but it was a far freer society than what emerged after the revolution. You should not blame America for 1979; you must blame the Ayatollah Khomeini and his supporters. America did not help the Iranians get rid of Mossadegh (you seem to think there was no widespread opposition to him or political instability at all) in order to create what currently exists; they had no knowledge that that was what would happen and if they did know, they wouldn't have done it. (No, I am not defending the coup, and if you think I am please read the above paragraph until you understand it.)

Here is a picture of Iran before the revolution:

Name:  tumblr_m9oik3a3zE1qaz0qto1_500.jpg
Views: 231
Size:  124.9 KB

Here is a picture of Iran after the revolution:

Name:  article-1293064-01204679000004B0-410_468x292.jpg
Views: 232
Size:  56.8 KB

Not saying the shah wasn't a tyrant, but in comparison to what Khomeini did, he was far, far preferable, so you should be blaming Khomeini for the state of Iran, not the shah or the US or UK. Blaming a coup which was irrelevant years ago indicates a lopsided view of moral responsibility.

Another country which has turned vile over the last century is Lebanon. It has been taken over by Hezbollah. Before their rise to military power, Lebanon was pretty much a free country. Why not blame Hezbollah then for that?

The troubles in Israel are primarily driven by Iranian-backed Gaza-based Hamas Islamists who should be the enemy of every sane person (Palestinian or Israeli), as well as the simple fact that Palestine (or rather, the West Bank specifically) under Arafat was not, and still is not (under Abbas), a free liberal democracy with regular elections, freedom of speech and so on, and in fact was willing to wage war indiscriminately on civilians in order to create an unfree state, during the second intifada. I sympathise with anybody who has to live with the cretins who supported the intifada (i.e. Palestinians who believe in democracy), but the intifada and the destructive ideology behind it is the (main) problem, so you've got your position mixed up. Don't get me wrong; Zionist expansionism is a problem, but it is not as big of a problem in the quest for peace.

I think you simply view some people as naturally more morally accountable than others. Otherwise I find your view rather unfathomable.
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1001Shab
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(Original post by felamaslen)
I actually knew about all of the things you mention, and have talked about them on this very forum with different people. I don't watch television at all, FYI, not that it is relevant.

Iran under the shah was a dictatorship, yes, but it was a far freer society than what emerged after the revolution. You should not blame America for 1979; you must blame the Ayatollah Khomeini and his supporters. America did not help the Iranians get rid of Mossadegh (you seem to think there was no widespread opposition to him or political instability at all) in order to create what currently exists; they had no knowledge that that was what would happen and if they did know, they wouldn't have done it. (No, I am not defending the coup, and if you think I am please read the above paragraph until you understand it.)

Here is a picture of Iran before the revolution:

Name:  tumblr_m9oik3a3zE1qaz0qto1_500.jpg
Views: 231
Size:  124.9 KB

Here is a picture of Iran after the revolution:

Name:  article-1293064-01204679000004B0-410_468x292.jpg
Views: 232
Size:  56.8 KB

Not saying the shah wasn't a tyrant, but in comparison to what Khomeini did, he was far, far preferable, so you should be blaming Khomeini for the state of Iran, not the shah or the US or UK. Blaming a coup which was irrelevant years ago indicates a lopsided view of moral responsibility.

Another country which has turned vile over the last century is Lebanon. It has been taken over by Hezbollah. Before their rise to military power, Lebanon was pretty much a free country. Why not blame Hezbollah then for that?

The troubles in Israel are primarily driven by Iranian-backed Gaza-based Hamas Islamists who should be the enemy of every sane person (Palestinian or Israeli), as well as the simple fact that Palestine (or rather, the West Bank specifically) under Arafat was not, and still is not (under Abbas), a free liberal democracy with regular elections, freedom of speech and so on, and in fact was willing to wage war indiscriminately on civilians in order to create an unfree state, during the second intifada. I sympathise with anybody who has to live with the cretins who supported the intifada (i.e. Palestinians who believe in democracy), but the intifada and the destructive ideology behind it is the (main) problem, so you've got your position mixed up. Don't get me wrong; Zionist expansionism is a problem, but it is not as big of a problem in the quest for peace.

I think you simply view some people as naturally more morally accountable than others. Otherwise I find your view rather unfathomable.
You don't need to show me pictures of Iran pre-1979; I know what it looked like and what it currently looks like.

You're right, the Shah was a dictator to some extent, but you've contradicted what you've said. The West, hence why it was called a Pro-Western government, placed the Shah’s government, thus, it was America's fault. In addition, America provoked Khomeini and encouraged him to attempt to overthrow the Shah, it succeeded but then the American's realised what a big mess they had made, but then it was too late. The war between Iran-Iraq erupted for ten years. Whilst both neighbouring countries were bombing each other with thousands of innocent civilians killed a year, America was providing both Iran and Iraq weapons. My mother lost her cousins in that war and my father was chemically poisoned - do you have any idea what that feels like? If you had some integrity, you would open your eyes, maybe then you'd realise what our countries and people have been through. You can look at the issue from different angles and blame others but the truth always prevails.

Iranian's never got rid of Mosaddegh, or even attempted to do so; he was respected among Iranians. It was the CIA and M16 that assassinated him. The reason why I am blaming the coup is because, we had no problems, our country was secular, women had rights and it seemed like a normal society. Had the American's and the British not conspired to assassinate our democratically elected Prime Minister, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Do you know why the Islamic Republic chants "death to America"? Because after the assassination they knew who was behind it, they had documented evidence and it made them angry. They realised that the American and British government were truly corrupt. Therefore, their hatred was initiated with the aforementioned and it proceeded as the Pro-Western government had neglected its duty to its own country. The system was turning into a dictatorship (executions and lack of freedom of speech to some extent) and the dominance of Western culture flourishing through our society; people were worried it would lead to greater predicaments (war between the classes). Which eventually became a problem, as there was a clash between the working-class who were religious and traditional and the upper class and middle class who had more liberal ideology.

If you find my reasons unfathomable then it’s down the reason that you've lived a comfortable life. You've never encountered any of the difficulties some of us may have come eye to eye with, hence why you cannot understand in depth or even comprehend.

Regardless of what I’ve said, I have no ill feeling towards the British people and American people. It's the governments that is the problem.
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brightcitylights
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I don't know. Hard to believe places like Iraq and Egypt were once the cradles of civilisation.
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felamaslen
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(Original post by 1001Shab)
You don't need to show me pictures of Iran pre-1979; I know what it looked like and what it currently looks like.

You're right, the Shah was a dictator to some extent, but you've contradicted what you've said. The West, hence why it was called a Pro-Western government, placed the Shah’s government, thus, it was America's fault. In addition, America provoked Khomeini and encouraged him to attempt to overthrow the Shah, it succeeded but then the American's realised what a big mess they had made, but then it was too late. The war between Iran-Iraq erupted for ten years. Whilst both neighbouring countries were bombing each other with thousands of innocent civilians killed a year, America was providing both Iran and Iraq weapons. My mother lost her cousins in that war and my father was chemically poisoned - do you have any idea what that feels like? If you had some integrity, you would open your eyes, maybe then you'd realise what our countries and people have been through. You can look at the issue from different angles and blame others but the truth always prevails.

Iranian's never got rid of Mosaddegh, or even attempted to do so; he was respected among Iranians. It was the CIA and M16 that assassinated him. The reason why I am blaming the coup is because, we had no problems, our country was secular, women had rights and it seemed like a normal society. Had the American's and the British not conspired to assassinate our democratically elected Prime Minister, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Do you know why the Islamic Republic chants "death to America"? Because after the assassination they knew who was behind it, they had documented evidence and it made them angry. They realised that the American and British government were truly corrupt. Therefore, their hatred was initiated with the aforementioned and it proceeded as the Pro-Western government had neglected its duty to its own country. The system was turning into a dictatorship (executions and lack of freedom of speech to some extent) and the dominance of Western culture flourishing through our society; people were worried it would lead to greater predicaments (war between the classes). Which eventually became a problem, as there was a clash between the working-class who were religious and traditional and the upper class and middle class who had more liberal ideology.

If you find my reasons unfathomable then it’s down the reason that you've lived a comfortable life. You've never encountered any of the difficulties some of us may have come eye to eye with, hence why you cannot understand in depth or even comprehend.

Regardless of what I’ve said, I have no ill feeling towards the British people and American people. It's the governments that is the problem.
The difference between the state and the citizens is everything, of course. I mean, my whole objection to totalitarian governments is the fact that they oppress their people. If I didn't care about the people then I would not care so much about the government either.

You seem to expect the US to make no mistakes. What I am saying to you is that it was not the US' intention to create a totalitarian state; they were not and are not allied in any ideological sense to totalitarianism. The fact that America is so powerful is what makes it seem more accountable for the crimes which occur on this Earth, but what do you expect when it had the job of maintaining world peace, which - if you look beyond the middle east - it did quite successfully. People who work for governments often make extremely short-sighted decisions which then backfire years later, but you should still blame the people who commit the actual crimes - first and foremost - rather than the people who unintentionally allow those crimes to be committed.

What you have to remember is that in 1953, the cold war was in full effect. Of course it made sense, in the eyes of a British or American politician, to have a strongly pro-Western ally, Iran, in the middle east, rather than an ambivalent or neutral country ready to come under Soviet influence. You can argue that this was the wrong position to hold, and I won't necessarily disagree. Sometimes international politics during world wars screws people over, and that's terribly unfortunate. What you must not say is that the decision to overthrow Mossadegh was done in order to create what is now the Fascist republic of Iran. The same goes for sponsoring of Afghan jihadists in the 80s against Soviet Russia; America did not do this with the intent of creating what Afghanistan became, they did it with the intent of defeating the USSR.

Saying "death to America" is simple-minded, solipsistic, absurd fanaticism. The democratic world, and especially democrats who live in the unfree world, have no better friend than America. I'm not saying America's internal politics are the most free or sensible in the world all the time, but America is one of the only countries (apart from the UK, Canada and Australia) which has almost consistently been on the right side in major wars and defended world peace and freedom. It's a cliche but it is nevertheless true. Without America, the world would be run by the Stalinists, Maoists and Hitlers of the world, not the democrats of Western Europe post-1945 (and Eastern Europe post-1989), and the democrats of free Korea, Japan and now Latin America (post-Cold war). There is no moral equivalence between making errors of judgement on the one hand, and committing violent atrocities or adhering to fascistic or authoritarian belief systems on the other. Arguably, the worst foreign policy "atrocity" of them all was the support for the USSR in WWII, which was as bad as Nazi Germany to its own people (and killed more of them than Hitler). And yet we all acknowledge that America was responsible for winning that war on the right side. Let's acknowledge that American ideals are what places like Iran should be returning to if they want to become free.
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The_Internet
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(Original post by FireGarden)
in b4 islam.
Tbh, there is a certain religious sect that we're currently backing and have backed for the last 70 or so years, despite it being really authoritarian and quite sectarian, which is Wahabism/Salafism in one of the richest countries in that region - Saudi Arabia

So from a religious perspective, there is that, and because of their wealth, they can influence other countries in the form of "aid" (ie: Saudi approved schools

The other thing is, the rise of nationalism as well, which helps fuel the fire

Before Ibn Al Wahab, the Arab world wasn't like as it is now. It was much better. Im not saying "The Arab world was all hippies, and "peace man" and full of free love" and whatever else, but I think if certain events didn't happen ie: Saudi Arabia becoming Saudi Arabia for starters, we would have less issues today
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The_Dragonborn
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Maybe it is because the West keep sending troops down there and blowing **** up.
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No Man
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Because of the removal of its dictators that kept the region relatively stable through putting a cap on Salafism (i.e Mubarak, Gaddaffi, Sadam Hussain, etc).

Egypt might become relatively stable again if Sisi gets into power and the West leaves him alone.
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LisaNikita
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This is why we need Trump in office. To remove dictators!! African and arab countries need to be free again!!!!!!!!!
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PTMalewski
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There is no tradition of democracy (unlike in Europe, where continuous tradition of slowly groving democracy has hundreds of years), and an orthodox religion (holy book, faith= thinking that some point of view that cannot be verified MUST be true) takes a very important role in lives of people of there. There, if someone has a particular religious opinion, that is different to someone's others, both believe that they are right, and their opponent must be wrong. There is no way to check this, as any faith cannot be verified, so the only way they can do to "solve" this contradiction is to eliminate their opponent.

Still, remember that secular states have been created in Europe as a pragmatic response to a series of religious home wars which were literally exhausting for both sides- catholic and protestant. On that basis, first liberal theories were constructed back then.
Perhaps this is what is happening in the Middle East right now.
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sayan98
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The west.
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Cato the Elder
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Inb4 the West, Jews and Israel.
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username2228735
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Islam.
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