The Student Room Group

Is Council Tax unfair?

Poll

Is Council Tax unfair?

Do you think council tax is unfair and need altering. I mean as a student we don't pay any council tax which I think is fair. However, if we were, when we do its like a grand a year for a cr*ppy shoebox size studio flat. Yet, its only another 2-300 or so for a complete house :confused: So shouldn't the bandings also include a calculation for the size of the property you live in, not just the market value, or perhaps instead scrap council tax and just stick it on VAT.

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Original post by Stewie2011
Do you think council tax is unfair and need altering. I mean as a student we don't pay any council tax which I think is fair. However, if we were, when we do its like a grand a year for a cr*ppy shoebox size studio flat. Yet, its only another 2-300 or so for a complete house :confused: So shouldn't the bandings also include a calculation for the size of the property you live in, not just the market value, or perhaps instead scrap council tax and just stick it on VAT.


Who else pays for the emergency services, refuse collection etc?
Perhaps it should be on the number of people using the services.

Oh wait. That's what the poll tax was.
I prefer a tax thats based on the value of your property rather than income as it doesn't distort work incentives. The main problem I have with council tax, which is what Mrs Thatcher tried to tackle, is that so many people don't pay it. These are also the groups that disproportionately consume council services. So you have a too-small proportion of the local residents having to stump up a too-high level of tax, to pay for services that are mainly consumed by someone else.

Unfortunately the Thatcher approach was the Poll Tax which was a flat rate based on the level of the council's spending so deprived areas which had higher spending had higher rates of Poll Tax than affluent areas and it just got seen as a caricature of nasty Maggie hating the poor.

I would like to see a system where everybody contributes something, and where there is also some link between what you pay and what you consume, so it doesn't give incentives to some people to just freeload and place a high burden on the rest.
Reply 4
Perhaps it should be added to VAT with a specific percentage of VAT going to pay for it, them everyone pays even tourists, so the burden is more evenly spread and encourages people not to waste resources.

Just think the present system your kind of subsiding larger property's. I mean you look around your cr*appy studio flat or whatever and think, 'If I wasn't a student they would want me to pay how much? for living in this dive on top of the rent already being paid.
Original post by Stewie2011
Perhaps it should be added to VAT with a specific percentage of VAT going to pay for it, them everyone pays even tourists, so the burden is more evenly spread and encourages people not to waste resources.

Just think the present system your kind of subsiding larger property's. I mean you look around your cr*appy studio flat or whatever and think, 'If I wasn't a student they would want me to pay how much? for living in this dive on top of the rent already being paid.


How are you subsidising larger houses?

The rule if thumb is the bigger the property, the more you pay. If anything people living in larger properties are subsidising others.

They pay more to get their rubbish collected the same as somebody paying less. They get the same service from the emergency services than somebody paying less.
Original post by Stewie2011
Perhaps it should be added to VAT with a specific percentage of VAT going to pay for it, them everyone pays even tourists, so the burden is more evenly spread and encourages people not to waste resources.

Just think the present system your kind of subsiding larger property's. I mean you look around your cr*appy studio flat or whatever and think, 'If I wasn't a student they would want me to pay how much? for living in this dive on top of the rent already being paid.


You can't set a proper budget for the services that the council tax pays for by getting it on VAT as VAT revenues go up and down. You're also left with the problem of collection of the money. It then gets collected centrally and has to be redistributed locally.

People can be encouraged not to waste resources now at a local level to reduce council tax.
Original post by Stewie2011
Perhaps it should be added to VAT with a specific percentage of VAT going to pay for it, them everyone pays even tourists, so the burden is more evenly spread and encourages people not to waste resources.

Just think the present system your kind of subsiding larger property's. I mean you look around your cr*appy studio flat or whatever and think, 'If I wasn't a student they would want me to pay how much? for living in this dive on top of the rent already being paid.


How would this help? It would mean the poor would be able to afford less, have less choice and certain businesses would lose out. While the rich wouldn't give a toss and wouldn't even notice the rise. If you tried to implement this there would be an uproar.

Also I think why it is only a few hundred pounds more for a much larger house is that there is a basic minimum (most of it) then it goes up on a scale. Council tax is just one of those bills you have to factor in to living independently, unfortunately, suck it up.
Reply 8
I'd probably prefer to abolish it and go with a land value tax or let each council keep VAT revenue but in the grand scheme of things i think that VAT, income taxes and business taxes are much higher priorities for reform.

I can't say that council tax is 'unfair' though.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 9
Original post by Stewie2011
Do you think council tax is unfair and need altering. I mean as a student we don't pay any council tax which I think is fair. However, if we were, when we do its like a grand a year for a cr*ppy shoebox size studio flat. Yet, its only another 2-300 or so for a complete house :confused: So shouldn't the bandings also include a calculation for the size of the property you live in, not just the market value, or perhaps instead scrap council tax and just stick it on VAT.


Eh?

A studio flat is typically lived in by one person, so it'd get a 25% reduction, so be more like £750. A 'complete house' would be at least band C so more like £1400.

The value will be a function of size to some point, but why you think someone in a trendy city centre studio flat, should pay less than someone in a crappy outskirks semi-detached is a bit lost on me.

The values need updating, the fact they date back to 1991 is pretty mental.

Personally I advocate a local income tax although I can see the rational behind a charging structure which is more uniform.
Can someone tell me, I am not trying to be provocative here, but what was actually so bad about the poll tax, it makes perfect sense to me. A poll tax within bandings would be perfect.
If the Council had fewer Five a Day Diversity Advisors they would need less cash.
Original post by Huskaris
Can someone tell me, I am not trying to be provocative here, but what was actually so bad about the poll tax, it makes perfect sense to me. A poll tax within bandings would be perfect.


It was bad because Labour Councils had, on average, the highest tax.
Original post by meenu89
It was bad because Labour Councils had, on average, the highest tax.


Ahhhhhhhhhh I see :biggrin:
Reply 14
Original post by revron77
Taxation = Punishment to business and economic growth!

The government should get its nose out of peoples pockets.


If you think a model of individuals organising and paying for waste removal could work I'd be delighted to hear it.

However, I for one would skip paying that fiver a week and tip my stuff on some waste ground on the way to work.
Original post by Huskaris
Ahhhhhhhhhh I see :biggrin:


Probably not the right answer. someone will give you the correct reason.
(edited 9 years ago)
Im not sure that fair or unfair has anything to do with it but it is just another tax on us as serfs. Once upon a time services were paid from national budgets. You paid national taxes. They then devolved powers to local authorities to manage budgets. They in turn launched the poll tax. Many of you guys and girls may be too young to remember the UK poll tax riots. It truly was the closest this country came to civil war for centuries.
Pitched battles were fought on the streets between the people and the states enforcers..the police.

So now we have national taxes which have increased to close the gap, and local taxes which again increase.

Truth is,we are not free. We are slaves in the engine room of the good ship UK Capitalist and we are working almost for nothing only to be taxed,taxed and taxed again.

You get your income tax, then when you dare to spend whats left,well you get your VAT. Care to die?>inheritance tax. Dare to invest and make a profit? Capital gains tax...
Original post by meenu89
It was bad because Labour Councils had, on average, the highest tax.


As I understand it meant that areas with more council spending had higher council tax. Sounds fine in theory until you realise that those areas with more council spending are more likely to be economically worse off.

As such you end up with poor people in poor areas paying more council tax than rich people in rich areas. Pretty obvious why that went down badly, even more so with the general narrative of the anti-Thatcher types.

Also didn't help that a LOT of people chose not to pay it, making it expensive to collect with little reward, and then some riots happened...
Reply 18
Original post by Limpopo
Im not sure that fair or unfair has anything to do with it but it is just another tax on us as serfs. Once upon a time services were paid from national budgets. You paid national taxes. They then devolved powers to local authorities to manage budgets. They in turn launched the poll tax. Many of you guys and girls may be too young to remember the UK poll tax riots. It truly was the closest this country came to civil war for centuries.
Pitched battles were fought on the streets between the people and the states enforcers..the police.

So now we have national taxes which have increased to close the gap, and local taxes which again increase.

Truth is,we are not free. We are slaves in the engine room of the good ship UK Capitalist and we are working almost for nothing only to be taxed,taxed and taxed again.

You get your income tax, then when you dare to spend whats left,well you get your VAT. Care to die?>inheritance tax. Dare to invest and make a profit? Capital gains tax...


Live as nomad, moving every fortnight, earn £9,900, spent it on food, keep an estate under £300k and don't make more than £10k capital gains in a year.

Golden.
Reply 19
Original post by MagicNMedicine

I would like to see a system where everybody contributes something, and where there is also some link between what you pay and what you consume, so it doesn't give incentives to some people to just freeload and place a high burden on the rest.


A system like that works fine, so long as everybody is equally wealthy. The point of a progressive tax system is so that everyone pays an amount proportional to what they can afford, without losing out on services. It would be unfair if poorer households had to pay the same as incredibly rich people for the same services, as these services are vital, and everybody must get access to in a modern, developed country. It would mean that paying for the essential services would take up a higher % of their income and wealth than richer people, which I believe to be inherently wrong in a caring society. I believe it is only fair that those who can afford to pay more do so, and those who can't don't have to pay as much.

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