Russia would be no match for the EU

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122025278
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The EU could quite easily become the biggest superpower on earth and presently, is much more powerful than Russia.

Russia of 70 years ago, is not the Russia of today. I'm convinced that when most people think of the military power of Russia, they think of a resurgent Soviet Union driving back besieged from all sides Nazis. The problem is this, warfare has changed, Russian politics have changed, economics have changed and Russian demographic superiority has changed.

Even just looking at the facts.

The population of the Soviet Union in 1940, 200 million. Russia today, 140 million
(and falling). The EU, 530 million, 4 times the population of Russia. That's crucial, because Russia's military power came from it's almost limitless manpower, either to feed the economy or serve in the military.

The GDP of the EU is about 8 times that of Russia. The EU has massive industrial capacity, Russia simply can't match it. Even if the comparison was just done on labour, the EUs huge advantage in that would give it the edge. But look at capital, the EU is way ahead of Russia. Then the research and technology available to the EU is just so far ahead of what Russia could muster.

Obviously the EU does not have a combined military, but if it did, it would be extremely formidable.
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Fango_Jett
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There seems to be a growing divide between the west and the east.

India and China have openly supported Russia, and I have no doubt that if it game to war, they would capitalize on the growing distaste of the west from China and India and attempt to ally themselves with them. I have no doubt that the EU would stand no chance against Russia, India and China combined.


The most best estimates of nuclear weapons by the EU puts the UK with 160 active and France with 290 active. Russia has 1800. In terms of firepower, Russia makes the EU look like a bunch of cavemen throwing rocks.
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122025278
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(Original post by Fango_Jett)
There seems to be a growing divide between the west and the east.

India and China have openly supported Russia, and I have no doubt that if it game to war, they would capitalize on the growing distaste of the west from China and India and attempt to ally themselves with them. I have no doubt that the EU would stand no chance against Russia, India and China combined.


The most best estimates of nuclear weapons by the EU puts the UK with 160 active and France with 290 active. Russia has 1800. In terms of firepower, Russia makes the EU look like a bunch of cavemen throwing rocks.
You seem to have an embarrassing understanding of global politics. For a start, the relations between India and China are frosty. They have never had anything remotely close to an alliance. India has extremely good relations with the EU, but with the UK and the US in particular. It has huge cultural links with the UK and pretty much none with Russia. You're also forgetting that India is the world's largest democracy, they can't just enter a conflict on the whim of some dictator, like a WW1 European head of state. The Russian and Chinese relationship is hardly close either. The whole point is moot though, because the idea that two countries would just join Russia in a war is totally ridiculous and unfounded.

As for nuclear weapons, you seem to think that it's significant that Russia has a few times more than what the EU has. The nuclear weapons the EU have are more than enough to destroy Russia. Furthermore, the capacity the EU have to produce nuclear weapons is huge, take Germany for example, a country that could go nuclear in a heartbeat if it wanted to. Furthermore your point is still moot, because if your scenario ever played out where nuclear weapons were being used, the US would be involved which itself has thousands of warheads.
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Ace123
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Completely disagree the EU is very divided on the subject and if they did somehow manage to all agree to go to war with Russia, Russia would win because the EU has too many different interests, the East/Germany dependent on Russian oil, also the Eurozone is in such a mess and fragile state it would not take very much to make nations like Spain/Italy/Greece go into chaos and you are assuming Russia would be acting alone they would probably get the support of China and probably India and even if Russia stood alone the EU is such a mess they could not sustain it for long considering half the countries are nearly bankrupt, defence spending has been slashed for years.
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The_Duck
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A federal EU would be a hell of a superpower, but also the kind of group that would never end up going to war.
I mean if we did go to war with russia all the eastern european countries would **** themselves, and quite understandably.
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the mezzil
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(Original post by Fango_Jett)
There seems to be a growing divide between the west and the east.

India and China have openly supported Russia, and I have no doubt that if it game to war, they would capitalize on the growing distaste of the west from China and India and attempt to ally themselves with them. I have no doubt that the EU would stand no chance against Russia, India and China combined.


The most best estimates of nuclear weapons by the EU puts the UK with 160 active and France with 290 active. Russia has 1800. In terms of firepower, Russia makes the EU look like a bunch of cavemen throwing rocks.
And yet every single Russian city would be a nuclear wasteland. Along with every single Chinese city and Indian city. We have enough nukes collectively to hit every single one of their cities in those respective countries. We don't need 1800 nukes because there is not 1800 Russian/ Chinese and Indian cities to nuke. We may be a caveman throwing rocks, but every one of those rocks would hit their target and cause devastation.

No they would not win a war with the EU/ USA. Nobody would win. But a war is not going to happen anyway.

One on one, the EU would rape Russia. That is disregarding the role the USA/ NATO would play.
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122025278
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(Original post by Ace123)
Completely disagree the EU is very divided on the subject and if they did somehow manage to all agree to go to war with Russia, Russia would win because the EU has too many different interests, the East/Germany dependent on Russian oil, also the Eurozone is in such a mess and fragile state it would not take very much to make nations like Spain/Italy/Greece go into chaos and you are assuming Russia would be acting alone they would probably get the support of China and probably India and even if Russia stood alone the EU is such a mess they could not sustain it for long considering half the countries are nearly bankrupt, defence spending has been slashed for years.
The defence spending of the EU is about 10 times that of Russia.

The population of the EU is more than 4 times Russia's.

The Russian military is made up of conscripts, relatively few professional soldiers. They are poorly paid, under equipped, badly trained and have suffered some shocking abuse in a series of scandals.

You mention the economy of the EU, the Russian economy is in a far worse state. The average Russian is very poor compared to the average EU citizen, about 8 times poorer. The Russian economy is extremely fragile and wholly reliant on one sector.

You have no evidence that China and India would support Russia, it's nonsensical. There are no treaties, no alliances. China has only ever been involved in one foreign conflict, with India. Which further goes against your point. Even that aside, India has some great links with the EU, especially the UK, massive political and cultural ties. Even still, if they were to get involved the EU would call on NATO, but by that point it would have gone nuclear.
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Heimdall
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I think Russia could win and only because Russia is the most headfirst of any country (see Ukraine issue, the way the ignore everybody)

If it came to it, The EU probably would not have enough time to retaliate to a nuclear attack on Russia, because let's face it, Russia are the people that would strike firs, the fact they have much more would mean that they can fire them all and the EU couldn't stop every one, but the limited number that the EU has, I'm sure Russia is more than capable of disarming them

Secondly you are saying "don't use whim's and stuff" so let's assume that only the countries that presently have nukes actually can use them, and NATO and the US are not getting involved.

Neither side would come out looking good, both would be destroyed, but do not count Russia out.

Lastly we are assuming the EU would even go to war with Russia, let's be honest they won't Germany definitely won't due to their dependency on Russian oil, and I believe that the EU doesn't have for want of a better word the courage to go to war with Russia
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Studentus-anonymous
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(Original post by 122025278)
Words.
Nobody thinks this, and the EU isn't a state so whether it would be a super-power or not is a moot point.
Not sure why you are bringing this up?
The nations of Europe though are far too pacifist and risk averse so would try and avoid conflict at all costs (whether you think that is good or bad is another topic).
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122025278
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
Nobody thinks this, and the EU isn't a state so whether it would be a super-power or not is a moot point.
Not sure why you are bringing this up?
The nations of Europe though are far too pacifist and risk averse so would try and avoid conflict at all costs (whether you think that is good or bad is another topic).
I agree with all of what you've said. The point I was making is that there seems to be quite a large proportion of people, I would say a majority, who view Russia as the Soviet Union of 1945 and the states within the EU virtually powerless to the threat of overwhelming Russian tanks and troops (non-existent) overrunning Europe.

Of course a war will never happen. Even if it did happen, most likely it would go nuclear. My point is, when you look at the facts, the Russian military is not anything like what most people perceive and the power the EU would have at its disposal (if it pooled together) is immense.

Did you see the reports of Typhoons intercepting Russian bombers off the coast of the UK? The Russian bomber was some huge 4 engined propeller aircraft that looked like it was from the 1950's. To me that epitomises the mismatch between them and us.
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ESPORTIVA
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(Original post by 122025278)
The EU could quite easily become the biggest superpower on earth and presently, is much more powerful than Russia.

Russia of 70 years ago, is not the Russia of today. I'm convinced that when most people think of the military power of Russia, they think of a resurgent Soviet Union driving back besieged from all sides Nazis. The problem is this, warfare has changed, Russian politics have changed, economics have changed and Russian demographic superiority has changed.

Even just looking at the facts.

The population of the Soviet Union in 1940, 200 million. Russia today, 140 million
(and falling). The EU, 530 million, 4 times the population of Russia. That's crucial, because Russia's military power came from it's almost limitless manpower, either to feed the economy or serve in the military.

The GDP of the EU is about 8 times that of Russia. The EU has massive industrial capacity, Russia simply can't match it. Even if the comparison was just done on labour, the EUs huge advantage in that would give it the edge. But look at capital, the EU is way ahead of Russia. Then the research and technology available to the EU is just so far ahead of what Russia could muster.

Obviously the EU does not have a combined military, but if it did, it would be extremely formidable.
so powerful that we are scared to fight russia.

seriously even thinking of starting a war with russia is stupid, unless you like the idea of living in the stone ages
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CEKTOP
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(Original post by Fango_Jett)
There seems to be a growing divide between the west and the east.

India and China have openly supported Russia, and I have no doubt that if it game to war, they would capitalize on the growing distaste of the west from China and India and attempt to ally themselves with them. I have no doubt that the EU would stand no chance against Russia, India and China combined.


The most best estimates of nuclear weapons by the EU puts the UK with 160 active and France with 290 active. Russia has 1800. In terms of firepower, Russia makes the EU look like a bunch of cavemen throwing rocks.
Oh, the IR experts have truly graced us with their presence today.

India and China have never openly supported Russia and relations among the three are anything but straightforward. Sure, they have not condemned Russia's actions due to their very own ongoing territorial disputes.

The amount of nuclear warheads is completely irrelevant due to the doctrine of MAD. Nukes can only be used as a deterrent in such conditions.

In terms of non-wmd firepower the EU (and this means NATO) is by far the strongest military alliance on Earth. Even if Russia, China and India combine their forces they would not stand a chance (not to mention the fact that such a supposition is utterly ridiculous)
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CEKTOP
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(Original post by Ace123)
Completely disagree the EU is very divided on the subject and if they did somehow manage to all agree to go to war with Russia, Russia would win because the EU has too many different interests, the East/Germany dependent on Russian oil, also the Eurozone is in such a mess and fragile state it would not take very much to make nations like Spain/Italy/Greece go into chaos and you are assuming Russia would be acting alone they would probably get the support of China and probably India and even if Russia stood alone the EU is such a mess they could not sustain it for long considering half the countries are nearly bankrupt, defence spending has been slashed for years.
Once you go to war with a single NATO member, the whole of NATO will be forced to fight against you. Russian oil/gas will no longer be of any concern in an event of a global war. How convenient of you to forget this fact.
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CEKTOP
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(Original post by Mubariz)
I think Russia could win and only because Russia is the most headfirst of any country (see Ukraine issue, the way the ignore everybody)

If it came to it, The EU probably would not have enough time to retaliate to a nuclear attack on Russia, because let's face it, Russia are the people that would strike firs, the fact they have much more would mean that they can fire them all and the EU couldn't stop every one, but the limited number that the EU has, I'm sure Russia is more than capable of disarming them

Secondly you are saying "don't use whim's and stuff" so let's assume that only the countries that presently have nukes actually can use them, and NATO and the US are not getting involved.

Neither side would come out looking good, both would be destroyed, but do not count Russia out.

Lastly we are assuming the EU would even go to war with Russia, let's be honest they won't Germany definitely won't due to their dependency on Russian oil, and I believe that the EU doesn't have for want of a better word the courage to go to war with Russia
Your assumptions regarding US non-intervention are laughable. US is what makes Europe strong militarily.
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I doubt a combined India/China could win a fight in a school playground. The Chinese have zero experience in their officer corps, and no ability to project force outside of their own back garden. India is a military joke.
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Heimdall
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(Original post by CEKTOP)
Your assumptions regarding US non-intervention are laughable. US is what makes Europe strong militarily.
I don't doubt in real life that the US would not intervene, I meant we should assume in this debate that they are not, since the US isn't EU. the same way we are assuming that any countries wouldn't help Russia.

The fight is EU vs Russia, and let's just debate that topic.

If it was purely EU vs Russia, the EU probably would be destroyed. Many of the countries aren't fit for a war anyway
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122025278
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(Original post by Mubariz)
I don't doubt in real life that the US would not intervene, I meant we should assume in this debate that they are not, since the US isn't EU. the same way we are assuming that any countries wouldn't help Russia.

The fight is EU vs Russia, and let's just debate that topic.

If it was purely EU vs Russia, the EU probably would be destroyed. Many of the countries aren't fit for a war anyway
How exactly would the EU get owned?
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Heimdall
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(Original post by 122025278)
How exactly would the EU get owned?
I rethought it and they would fight back, and I guess it could go on for a while, but Russia would probably win in my opinion

I reckon that Russia would act first with nukes, with 1,800 active and 8,500 in total it's enough to blow everybody off the map.

I wouldn't provoke Russia, especially with Putin in power

Lastly, if it really came to it, let's assume Russia is all but destroyed, I would have no doubt that they would take the rest of the world with them, all those nukes would most likely cause a nuclear fallout that could kill most people on Earth
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hellodave5
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(Original post by Mubariz)
I rethought it and they would fight back, and I guess it could go on for a while, but Russia would probably win in my opinion

I reckon that Russia would act first with nukes, with 1,800 active and 8,500 in total it's enough to blow everybody off the map.

I wouldn't provoke Russia, especially with Putin in power

Lastly, if it really came to it, let's assume Russia is all but destroyed, I would have no doubt that they would take the rest of the world with them, all those nukes would most likely cause a nuclear fallout that could kill most people on Earth
I'm not sure how raining down nukes would help anyone.
Would it not essentially make the planet inhospitable?
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Heimdall
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(Original post by hellodave5)
I'm not sure how raining down nukes would help anyone.
Would it not essentially make the planet inhospitable?
Strategic nukes on the main cities, but just do multiples on the same target at intervals so it is hard to fire them all down.
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