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tomcoolinguk
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#141
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#141
As a man I feel sorry for women in the whole abortion issue... remember that there are two people involved in the act of teenage pregnancy! What I can't believe is how everyone- and I go to a Catholic school, where it is looked over completely as well- seems to ignore the very obvious socioeconomic factors underlying abortion. Teenagers without a future think they might as well have the baby, and then live off benefits- something which they too become bitterly depressed about, whereas middle class girls think 'oh ****, this ****s up my entire life' and get rid of the baby. The solution is obvious- if you dont want it, give it up for adoption. What I find really distressing is abortion when couples are married and in stable, healthy and loving relationships where it just 'doesn't fit the plan'.

Blame feminism... that's what i say (LOL; that is a whole other conversation)
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Bigcnee
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#142
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(Original post by Amb1)
I'm sorry but that actually is crap. I really don't think you should judge all women who have abortions by the same standard.

And by "the minority", I mean 'a small number of', or 'few'.
I think you are viewing abortion with very rose-coloured glasses.
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Amb1
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#143
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#143
(Original post by Bigcnee)
I think you are viewing abortion with very rose-coloured glasses.
why do you think that? Is it because I said
Abortion is a very traumatic experience...
or because I think abortion is
a very distressing and painful experience
??

I think you are viewing abortion with a very closed mind. You're very lucky - as a man - that you can guarentee never having to make or deal with this kind of decision, I think that's what makes it so easy for you to take such a definite viewpoint.
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Bigcnee
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#144
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#144
(Original post by Amb1)
I think you are viewing abortion with a very closed mind. You're very lucky - as a man - that you can guarentee never having to make or deal with this kind of decision, I think that's what makes it so easy for you to take such a definite viewpoint.
When in doubt, play the gender card. :rolleyes:

Although men do not have to go through the experience of pregnancy, it certainly takes two to tango. It makes me sick that men have NO say in the pregnancy (although this is not unsurprising). Please don't use the whole "you can't have a valid opinion because you're a bloke" bull****.
Have you ever been pregnant? Then shut up!
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neha p
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#145
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#145
(Original post by Bigcnee)
When in doubt, play the gender card. :rolleyes:

Although men do not have to go through the experience of pregnancy, it certainly takes two to tango. It makes me sick that men have NO say in the pregnancy (although this is not unsurprising). Please don't use the whole "you can't have a valid opinion because you're a bloke" bull****.
Have you ever been pregnant? Then shut up!
its true that men hardly have a say in pregnancy when they should have, but i think this goes when the two people are in a relationship. if the girl is raped, then obviously only she has the option. however, if two people have broken up, i think it depends upon how good friends they are.
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NDGAARONDI
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#146
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#146
Yes I have heard that people say that having an abortion has such mental effects on the mother. Yet, ironically, it can also affect the father too. I learnt this case where the woman told her guy she was going to have an abortion (presumably against his will as they probably both wanted it originally) and you know what he did? Went in a fit of rage, electrocuted her in the result that she'd die. Bit extreme I know. But it can also affect the father's mental capacity too, and have not seen anyone say this.
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Amb1
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#147
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#147
(Original post by Bigcnee)
When in doubt, play the gender card. :rolleyes:

Although men do not have to go through the experience of pregnancy, it certainly takes two to tango. It makes me sick that men have NO say in the pregnancy (although this is not unsurprising). Please don't use the whole "you can't have a valid opinion because you're a bloke" bull****.
Have you ever been pregnant? Then shut up!
:rolleyes: Typical male! I'm not in doubt and it's a valid card to play. I don't remember saying anything along the lines of 'men shouldn't have a say' or 'you can't have an opinion because you're a bloke'. This is a debate and I happen to have different views to you on the issue.
Please stop using the "I'm right because I'm a bloke and everyone else is wrong if they have different opinions to me and my argument is so flat that I'll have to start attacking people and telling them to shut up" bull****.
And also, why do you make the assumption that I have never been pregnant? Maybe I have. Frankly, it's none of your business and doesn't affect the debate.
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NDGAARONDI
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#148
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#148
(Original post by neha p)
its true that men hardly have a say in pregnancy when they should have, but i think this goes when the two people are in a relationship. if the girl is raped, then obviously only she has the option. however, if two people have broken up, i think it depends upon how good friends they are.
Apparently one case I heard of which went to the ECJ (forgotten name) was decided that as the father has split up with the mother, he has no say over the termination. I thought he divorced her not the child?

But this point has been discussed before I think.

I keep hearing the rape argument. I would like to know how many of those who have had a termination were actually raped. I'm not saying it doesn't go in etc but just wiish to know the rough amount.
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Bigcnee
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#149
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#149
(Original post by Amb1)
:rolleyes: Typical male! I'm not in doubt and it's a valid card to play. I don't remember saying anything along the lines of 'men shouldn't have a say' or 'you can't have an opinion because you're a bloke'. This is a debate and I happen to have different views to you on the issue.
Please stop using the "I'm right because I'm a bloke and everyone else is wrong if they have different opinions to me and my argument is so flat that I'll have to start attacking people and telling them to shut up" bull****.
And also, why do you make the assumption that I have never been pregnant? Maybe I have. Frankly, it's none of your business and doesn't affect the debate.
It does affect the debate when you use lines such as:

"You're very lucky - as a man - that you can guarentee never having to make or deal with this kind of decision, I think that's what makes it so easy for you to take such a definite viewpoint."

... if you've never had to make the decision, then how are you any different/more qualified?
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Amb1
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#150
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#150
(Original post by Bigcnee)
It does affect the debate when you use lines such as:

"You're very lucky - as a man - that you can guarentee never having to make or deal with this kind of decision, I think that's what makes it so easy for you to take such a definite viewpoint."
I don't have the guarantee of never ever being in a situation where a decision about having a termination or not would have to be made. You do. I'm not saying that your view is less valid than anyone elses. You are genuinely lucky that you will never be in that situation. And I do think that that makes it easier to be so definite. I think women who are 100% sure of what they would do if they found themselves in such a situation are also very lucky.
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yawn1
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#151
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#151
(Original post by Amb1)
I don't have the guarantee of never ever being in a situation where a decision about having a termination or not would have to be made. You do. I'm not saying that your view is less valid than anyone elses. You are genuinely lucky that you will never be in that situation. And I do think that that makes it easier to be so definite. I think women who are 100% sure of what they would do if they found themselves in such a situation are also very lucky.
It is nonsense to suggest that the father, because he is male, would never be in the situation where a decision about having a termination or not would have to be made.

In a relationship, both potential parents have the responsibility on determining whether their child should live or die.

A man can suffer just as much pain and anguish as a woman when they decide their child should die.

Incidentally, since the reforms in the Abortion Act, 'social' reasons are cited as grounds for abortion. Is this just another word for 'convenience'?
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Bigcnee
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#152
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#152
(Original post by yawn1)
Incidentally, since the reforms in the Abortion Act, 'social' reasons are cited as grounds for abortion. Is this just another word for 'convenience'?
It is indeed.
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NDGAARONDI
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#153
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#153
It's about time they should put documentaries on this topic, or at least one, have coem across the holocaust and capital punishment so there are no grounds of refusing to air this.
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randdom
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#154
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
http://www.prolife.org.uk/articles.asp There is a link to look at the aborted phoetuses if you are inclined to look. I've seen the 22 week one and it looks very human. In fact I've come across born human beings who look less human than the aborted 22 week old baby!
I think it is possible to be pro-abortion but not think that it is acceptable to abort a 22 week old foetus. My personal view is that abortions should be allowed. But not whenever during the five months that the mother wants it too. I feel that a social abortion (one done because the pregnancy is unwanted) should be done within the first 12 weeks. Tests should be done after 12 weeks to check for problems with the foetus. I think that abortions on medical grounds eg danger to mother or abnormal foetus should be allowed until 18 weeks and no abortions after that.

In reguards to the rights of the father in abortion. I do think that it is unfair how they are treated at the moment. The women has the choice whether she has the baby or not. If she has the baby the father has to pay child support if she doesn't the father can't stop her from having an abortion. I personally feel that the father should have a say in abortion. I don't think he should be allowed to force and abortion on a women but I do think that he should be able to stop her from having an abortion providing that he signs a document stating that he is willing to raise the child alone. I know this may cause problems but the current system is unfair.

I understand where Amb1 is comming from when she talks about the fact that it is easier for a man to be anti abortion. Because the fact of nature is that women are the ones that give birth to the babys. As a man you can be 100% cirtain that you will never have to have an abortion. I am sure that having an abortion is a traumatic experiance, I mean it is going against the maternal instincts that the mother has. I think that a women who goes for an abortion probably does suffer and it is unfair to say that she doesn't.

(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
It's about time they should put documentaries on this topic, or at least one, have coem across the holocaust and capital punishment so there are no grounds of refusing to air this.
There was one on channal four a while back called My foetus which looked at some of the issues and showed an abortion.
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NDGAARONDI
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#155
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#155
(Original post by randdom)
There was one on channal four a while back called My foetus which looked at some of the issues and showed an abortion.
Probably why I haven't seen it. Not seen anything on Channel 4 for years I get the feeling you won't get these programmes on the BBC. That was more what I was implying. Just you never learn this in school and parents might not like talking about it, so either friends, clinics and other advisory agencies can help, or even better the TV
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randdom
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#156
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#156
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Probably why I haven't seen it. Not seen anything on Channel 4 for years I get the feeling you won't get these programmes on the BBC. That was more what I was implying. Just you never learn this in school and parents might not like talking about it, so either friends, clinics and other advisory agencies can help, or even better the TV
One of the teachers at my school recorded it and is showing it in school PSE lessons. I think that these new pictures in the media will encourage more debate on the bbc.
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NDGAARONDI
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#157
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#157
(Original post by randdom)
One of the teachers at my school recorded it and is showing it in school PSE lessons. I think that these new pictures in the media will encourage more debate on the bbc.
That's good. I did sweat FA in mine when we had any. Mind you I wasn't bothered then. May be we might get an 'intellectual' show hosting the debate like panorama or something. Who knows.
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DivideByZero
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#158
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#158
Why do silly people argue over relative defenitions? Or maybe you're all arguing for absolutes and are all arguing with faith beliefs?
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yawn1
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#159
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#159
(Original post by DivideByZero)
Why do silly people argue over relative defenitions? Or maybe you're all arguing for absolutes and are all arguing with faith beliefs?

Are you saying that people cannot argue with moral or humanist principles unless they also have faith beliefs?
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drago di giada
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#160
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#160
I have the easiest argument.. There is no such thing as "Accidental Pregnancy." Therefore, if the mother gets pregnant and she concents to the sex then pssht.. she should be made to carry the baby full-term, UNLESS it endangers her life. Secondly if the girl is raped, THEN she should be given the option to end the pregnancy. Thirdly, if the woman does concent to the sex and she gets pregnant BUT she cannot support herself, and the child.. etc etc.. then she can end it, OR she can carry it full-term and adopt.
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