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Army to review female close combat roles

Reply 60

SilverAlex

4

Christ, imagine female NCOs.
I certainly wouldn't want that.

Reply 61

arson_fire

5

Original post by SilverAlex

Christ, imagine female NCOs.
I certainly wouldn't want that.

I think the chances of you getting to a position where you would deal with female NCOs are slim, so I think your quite safe :smile:

Reply 62

SilverAlex

4

Original post by arson_fire

I think the chances of you getting to a position where you would deal with female NCOs are slim, so I think your quite safe :smile:

I don't plan on it, many of my friends who work in the military are against it though.

Reply 63

Apocrypha

15

Id like to see more female opinions on this, there have been none so far as far as i have read.

Reply 64

Dr Alcoholic

14

If they can pass the set requirements to the same standards of men then I don't see why not I suppose if that's what they choose.

Having said that, and I don't mean this in any sort of derogatory way, but I doubt there are many women capable of passing sas selection. However if they do then fair play to them.

Reply 65

Marco1

15

Original post by Clip

Don't be silly. There's no league table of armies. We're just the best. Everyone knows it.

That's not exactly true and actually a really arrogant assumption. The rest of the world does not regard the British Army as the best! British soldiers have it instilled into them through their training that they are the best. It is the tradition and I don't think it is a necessary one or a healthy one. When you have to boast that you are the best, you are inadvertently casting doubt on your own assumption. If you are the best, you don't have to talk about it.

Reply 66

bananaminion

12

Original post by Apocrypha

Id like to see more female opinions on this, there have been none so far as far as i have read.

There have been a few on this, thread but also, female soldiers and ex-soldiers have been talking about it (there was an ex-major and another soldier on Newnight last night, one for and one against) http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04365d8/Newsnight_08_05_2014/

Reply 67

Marco1

15

It's a disgrace. Firstly that sort of big decision should be the result of a serious ethical debate, not because the recruitment numbers are a bit short of the target. Secondly, it is too problematic and goes against nature. Women are innately nurturers and protectors of life, but would have to mame and kill, from a distance and the savagery of close quarter combat. Guys would be distracted and the unit strength compromised. If there were women-only combat units, led by women officers that would be less problematic but morally I still think it is wrong. Men make the most effective fighting soldiers. We can't give birth to life but we make good killers.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 68

Octohedral

16

Original post by Apocrypha

Id like to see more female opinions on this, there have been none so far as far as i have read.

I'm female. :biggrin:

See below.

Original post by bertstare

Just a ****ty idea, how is a 100lb woman going to be of any use when trying to move an injured 200lb man to a safe location

They would still have to pass the same standards and training, and it's perfectly possible none would even qualify on certain courses. We're not talking about recruiting old ladies and twelve year old girls, we're talking about the (admittedly few) solidly built, physically fit women who can prove over a period of months and years that they keep calm under pressure and can carry heavy equipment for miles etc. If they can't carry a 200lb dummy to safety in training they're not going to be allowed into a close-quarters conflict (presumably).

A stronger counter-argument is the idea that it could change the team dynamic (eg men looking out for the women / being more badly affected by seeing women get blown up). I can see arguments for this, but it would need further study.

My personal opinion is that the gender requirement is not unfair on women any more than the height requirement is unfair on short men, or the limb requirement on one-legged people - it's unfortunate for them, but you don't mess around with people's lives. Besides, the armed forces are shrinking and there is no shortage of applicants.

However, women seem to fit into the rest of the military reasonably well, and there's nothing detrimental about widening the pool of people to choose from, so it may be a removable requirement so long as no standards are lowered.

Reply 69

Comus

10

If they can meet the same fitness requirements then why not?

Reply 70

the-black-lotus

8

If they can pass the same fitness tests I don't see why not, obviously you wouldn't want lower standards and you would definitely expect to still have the overwhelming majority being men. If a woman is willing and capable, I don't see why she shouldn't be able to serve her country in whatever way she wants.

Reply 71

james22

16

Potential issue that men would react more irrationally in a battle situation involving a woman on their side. Not sure how significant this could be but it should be ruled out first.

Reply 72

Drewski

19

Do they actually want to?

The only roles closed off to women in the Armed Forces are infantry roles, everything else is open (including the recently publicised women serving on board Royal Navy submarines for the first time). Is there any evidence to suggest that the massive cost that this would require (in adaptations to training establishments and increased supply costs to the frontline) would actually be money well spent?

The only people for whom this makes any difference are the politicians.

However, I will just say to all those who argue that the Army is not an instrument of social change, the same argument was made about having troops of ethnic minorities serving alongside non-minorities, and of homosexuals, both limits have been proven to be nothing but nonsense.

Reply 73

Clip

19

Original post by Marco1

That's not exactly true and actually a really arrogant assumption. The rest of the world does not regard the British Army as the best! British soldiers have it instilled into them through their training that they are the best. It is the tradition and I don't think it is a necessary one or a healthy one. When you have to boast that you are the best, you are inadvertently casting doubt on your own assumption. If you are the best, you don't have to talk about it.

This is untrue. The rest of the world secretly knows that we are the best. They just don't want to say it.

Reply 74

Clip

19

Original post by Comus

If they can meet the same fitness requirements then why not?

Original post by the-black-lotus

If they can pass the same fitness tests I don't see why not, obviously you wouldn't want lower standards and you would definitely expect to still have the overwhelming majority being men. If a woman is willing and capable, I don't see why she shouldn't be able to serve her country in whatever way she wants.

They can't, and everyone knows they can't.

The average female soldier is not Kelly Holmes or Heather Stanning. The average female soldier is just your average girl who has usually joined the Army to escape whatever appalling little town she's from. They are usually mediocre athletes and often scrape through the fitness requirements as they stand.

The number of volunteers you will get for female infantry will be small, the numbers passing training will be tiny and of those, I would expect most to be medically discharged and suing the MoD for some nonsense or other within a year.

Reply 75

Drewski

19

Original post by Clip

TThe number of volunteers you will get for female infantry will be small, the numbers passing training will be tiny and of those, I would expect most to be medically discharged and suing the MoD for some nonsense or other within a year.

...or getting pregnant to avoid ops.

Reply 76

Clip

19

Original post by Drewski

...or getting pregnant to avoid ops.

Forgot about that one.

Reply 77

Marco1

15

Original post by Clip

This is untrue. The rest of the world secretly knows that we are the best. They just don't want to say it.

You're being facetious right?

Reply 78

Drewski

19

Original post by Marco1

You're being facetious right?

There is a reason why a huge number of foreign militaries base their training on the British model - allowing for differences in local traditions, of course - as well as coming over to train alongside our troops, or meet up with RN warships or have exercises alongside RAF aircraft.

As much as there are a huge number of people who want to disparage anything and everything this country comes up with, and while we are admittedly much smaller than we used to be in a military sense, none of that has an effect on the quality of our training. It's one of the reasons our defence budget is so big despite the perceived lack of people or equipment.

Reply 79

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by the mezzil

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27331365

Is this a good idea?

Personally, I can't see many women passing the physical Phase 2 Infantry combat course, but I suppose the option should be there.

Personally, I think its a bad idea. Having served in the army I've worked with many females in rear echelon positions and have absolutely no dramas (although I did notice that throwing women into the mix could often make a tense situation even more tense)

Certain types of roles are physically demanding in the military. When we've had RAF females going to court to claim for damages caused by marching, god knows what its going to be like with a 60lb Bergen, CBA and weapon systems.

The navy has had women on ships for some time. The navy runs what are called stag ships with all make crews due to a shorthage of female crew. The stag ships are continually operated to a higher standard and I know many a matelot who will only serve on stag ships as there's less 'situations' due to sailors being focused on their jobs rather than slapping on the Old Spice and hair gel to try and impress the Doris they're working with.

Without even going through this thread, somebody will highlight females in the IDF. The Israelis are starting I realise that the experiment isn't that great an idea.

Army to review female close combat roles

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