This discussion is closed.
Mysticmin
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#21
Report 15 years ago
#21
(Original post by J.S.)
There are ONLY two universities in England which are going to get a very serious reaction upon their mention, whether in England and especially so abroad, and we both know which two. You can try and pretend all you like, but that's just the simple reality. As for job/placement, WOAHH talk about unrealistic expectations mate! I know people from LSE who have been rejected from practically every placement! Your degree doesn't really get you into ANY job, it doesn't even get you an interview these days. You need a hell of a lot of extra curricular acitvities, a great deal of confidence, ability to speak in public and the like before you can think of walking into some major company.
He's right. It's only oxbridge that are known virtually throughout the world. Saying that, would you attend oxbridge purely for the name if it wasn't actually that good for your subject?
0
Sanctus
Badges:
#22
Report 15 years ago
#22
I believe that we all agree that Oxbridge is universally known to almost all people around the world, but the LSE isn't. However, in the world of graduate employment, academia, the chattering classes, and politics, the LSE, I would posit, is almost as well known as Oxbridge, certainly at least in Asia, Europe, and South America (I'm not sure about North America and so can't really comment). And when it is known it is as respected as Oxbridge.
0
Mysticmin
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#23
Report 15 years ago
#23
(Original post by Sanctus)
I believe that we all agree that Oxbridge is universally known to almost all people around the world, but the LSE isn't. However, in the world of graduate employment, academia, the chattering classes, and politics, the LSE, I would posit, is almost as well known as Oxbridge, certainly at least in Asia, Europe, and South America (I'm not sure about North America and so can't really comment). And when it is known it is as respected as Oxbridge.
Yup, i agree, especially for economics and the like. However suppose you got accepted into oxford for um...a science (bar physics - stephen hawkings did his undergrad there so it's gotta be good) or fine art. Would you really go? Because there are better but less well known institutions. I'm not sure what I'd do in that position.
0
llama boy
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#24
Report 15 years ago
#24
(Original post by J.S.)
I think LSE is an excellent university which I'd particualrly opt for if looking to work abroad
(Original post by W.A.S Hewins)
Above we've got a post from damn-your-eyes Mr. Arrogant JS about how LSE is totally obscure...just another Brit also - ran uni
0
Sanctus
Badges:
#25
Report 15 years ago
#25
(Original post by Mysticmin)
Yup, i agree, especially for economics and the like. However suppose you got accepted into oxford for um...a science (bar physics - stephen hawkings did his undergrad there so it's gotta be good) or fine art. Would you really go? Because there are better but less well known institutions. I'm not sure what I'd do in that position.
Well, I'm going to worm out answering that question by saying I'm going to aim for the best of both worlds - get my BSc in Philosophy at LSE (the course I love) and then hopefully do my Masters at Cambridge.
0
currency_westlake
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#26
Report 15 years ago
#26
Well, it's interesting to see how polarised this debate has become, and I'm certainly not going to go against that trend!...

I maintain what I said earlier; that a degree from the LSE carries more weight than the equivalent at another top 10 uni (Warwick or Bath, in this case). Of course, if it is a comparison between a first and an upper second then the institution makes little difference. However, considering how many people are now graduating from university, and the consistently high standards that are being achieved; I think that the importance of the university that you study at has become far more significant than before, and I would expect it to continue to rise.

If you accept this premise (and I can back it up by saying that most top 20 uni's have 1/2:1 rates of around 70%) then you must subsequently agree that other factors must enter into consideration to distinguish between two equally qualified graduates. What I (and W.A.S. Hewins) have said is that institutional reputation can be an extremely influential factor, in the case of a university with a worldwide reputation. I am sure that everyone agrees unanimously that Oxford and Cambridge degrees posses such a high level of esteem that anyone who holds them carries an advantage into an application for academic placements or employment. What some of us are suggesting is that an LSE degree likewise carries a suitable amount of prestige to be of advantage to its holder.

Advocates of this theory are right to start by pointing out the glittering list of LSE alumni (JFK, Annan, Cherie Blair etc.) and furthermore compare this to uni's like Warwick and Bath (most people would struggle to name an alumnus of both) which, statistically, might be considered to be on the same level of LSE. Clearly LSE has spawn a much more successful breed of graduates than most other top 10 universities, and much of this is generally contributed to the lifestyle and atmosphere of LSE (much renowned for the debating societies and political activism). Considering that all LSE students are privy to this lifestyle, I think it would be somewhat naive to suggest that it does not trigger a reaction in an employers mind which works in favour of the LSE graduate and against the Warwick/Bath graduate.

Additionally, it seems to me that the further a field you travel, the more highly LSE is regarded. While the London School of Economics is a long-renowned brand across America and Asia, places like Warwick and Bath are largely unrecognisable. Here is an example of the 'LSE brand' at work: When the writers of US drama the West Wing (absolutely fantastic, btw) needed to choose a university for 'Jeb Bartlett' (fictional president) it needed to match the president’s persona of being an academic intellect, with a passionate political ideology. They chose LSE because they new that its image and reputation resonates across the world as one of the highest possible standards. I would hope that you would also agree that if he was an Alumnus of Warwick or Bath, it would not have the same effect.

In my opinion, while I think that standards at the three mentioned uni's are roughly similar, and most people will make as much out of it as they are capable of regardless. An LSE degree still holds considerably more prestige than Bath/Warwick, and the generally recognised 'LSE experience' exceeds other uni's to the extent that it has a bearing on prospects for the future.

Of course, this is open to huge debate (as demonstrated above) and I happily concede that my argument lacks a great deal of credibility as I am still only studying A-Levels (although I held offers from the three above uni's and some others).

I welcome any criticisms of my argument, and apologise for the inevitable spelling mistakes that plague anything written on a computer after midnight!

Thanks for reading, Tom!
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#27
Report 15 years ago
#27
(Original post by tomhitchings)
Well, it's interesting to see how polarised this debate has become, and I'm certainly not going to go against that trend!...



I maintain what I said earlier; that a degree from the LSE carries more weight than the equivalent at another top 10 uni (Warwick or Bath, in this case). Of course, if it is a comparison between a first and an upper second then the institution makes little difference. However, considering how many people are now graduating from university, and the consistently high standards that are being achieved; I think that the importance of the university that you study at has become far more significant than before, and I would expect it to continue to rise.



If you accept this premise (and I can back it up by saying that most top 20 uni's have 1/2:1 rates of around 70%) then you must subsequently agree that other factors must enter into consideration to distinguish between two equally qualified graduates. What I (and W.A.S. Hewins) have said is that institutional reputation can be an extremely influential factor, in the case of a university with a worldwide reputation. I am sure that everyone agrees unanimously that Oxford and Cambridge degrees posses such a high level of esteem that anyone who holds them carries an advantage into an application for academic placements or employment. What some of us are suggesting is that an LSE degree likewise carries a suitable amount of prestige to be of advantage to its holder.



Advocates of this theory are right to start by pointing out the glittering list of LSE alumni (JFK, Annan, Cherie Blair etc.) and furthermore compare this to uni's like Warwick and Bath (most people would struggle to name an alumnus of both) which, statistically, might be considered to be on the same level of LSE. Clearly LSE has spawn a much more successful breed of graduates than most other top 10 universities, and much of this is generally contributed to the lifestyle and atmosphere of LSE (much renowned for the debating societies and political activism). Considering that all LSE students are privy to this lifestyle, I think it would be somewhat naive to suggest that it does not trigger a reaction in an employers mind which works in favour of the LSE graduate and against the Warwick/Bath graduate.



Additionally, it seems to me that the further a field you travel, the more highly LSE is regarded. While the London School of Economics is a long-renowned brand across America and Asia, places like Warwick and Bath are largely unrecognisable. Here is an example of the 'LSE brand' at work: When the writers of US drama the West Wing (absolutely fantastic, btw) needed to choose a university for 'Jeb Bartlett' (fictional president) it needed to match the president’s persona of being an academic intellect, with a passionate political ideology. They chose LSE because they new that its image and reputation resonates across the world as one of the highest possible standards. I would hope that you would also agree that if he was an Alumnus of Warwick or Bath, it would not have the same effect.



In my opinion, while I think that standards at the three mentioned uni's are roughly similar, and most people will make as much out of it as they are capable of regardless. An LSE degree still holds considerably more prestige than Bath/Warwick, and the generally recognised 'LSE experience' exceeds other uni's to the extent that it has a bearing on prospects for the future.



Of course, this is open to huge debate (as demonstrated above) and I happily concede that my argument lacks a great deal of credibility as I am still only studying A-Levels (although I held offers from the three above uni's and some others).



I welcome any criticisms of my argument, and apologise for the inevitable spelling mistakes that plague anything written on a computer after midnight!



Thanks for reading, Tom!
totally agree with you lse is superior to these two universities, although warwick's business school is regarded as one of the best in europe, lse will always have the edge
0
Lawz-
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#28
Report 15 years ago
#28
Really to think that your institution will be a warranty for ANTHING is dangerous... just plain dangerous...

This is why so many Oxbridge students get a SHOCK when they get into the workplace and realize its not that big a deal. The fact is that HUGE numbers of people have gone through there - you are NOT UNIQUE.

Of course if you come top of Oxford, then its better than coming top of LSE, but that’s the POINT! The main thing is your grades - a 1st from say LSE, UCL, KCL, DURHAM, (for Law for instance - being what I do) is better than a mid-range 2:1 from Oxford or Cambridge. You have to recall that many many good applicants get rejected from Oxbridge, or chose not to go there for varied reasons - don’t think cause you got in there OR ANYWHERE that you are automatically on the train to success - that is what will trip you up. Once you are there you have to work like a madman to stay on top, and you will be constantly doing that for the rest of your career - the university you attend will gradually fade into the background
0
TheWolf
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#29
Report 15 years ago
#29
(Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
Really to think that your institution will be a warranty for ANTHING is dangerous... just plain dangerous...

This is why so many Oxbridge students get a SHOCK when they get into the workplace and realize its not that big a deal. The fact is that HUGE numbers of people have gone through there - you are NOT UNIQUE.

Of course if you come top of Oxford, then its better than coming top of LSE, but that’s the POINT! The main thing is your grades - a 1st from say LSE, UCL, KCL, DURHAM, (for Law for instance - being what I do) is better than a mid-range 2:1 from Oxford or Cambridge. You have to recall that many many good applicants get rejected from Oxbridge, or chose not to go there for varied reasons - don’t think cause you got in there OR ANYWHERE that you are automatically on the train to success - that is what will trip you up. Once you are there you have to work like a madman to stay on top, and you will be constantly doing that for the rest of your career - the university you attend will gradually fade into the background
noone is saying that, with all other factors being equal lse is better than the other 2 universities
0
Lawz-
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#30
Report 15 years ago
#30
TomHitchings said: "10) My Ego: I want to be able to say to people "I went to the London School of Economics"...... It practically guarantees you the job/placement/whatever when you apply for something."

I was responding to that
0
J.S.
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#31
Report 15 years ago
#31
(Original post by W.A.S Hewins)
Some of these controversialists are tremendously fickle. Above we've got a post from damn-your-eyes Mr. Arrogant JS about how LSE is totally obscure...just another Brit also - ran uni...only Oxbridge matters blah blah...

I'm beginning to think you're some sort of a propaganda machine for the LSE, but I think they need a new and improved model, as you've gotten a tad predictable, I don't think anybody reads your obsessive contributions and actually takes them too seriously. For your benefit, I shall state in no uncertain terms, just so you can understand that I think the LSE is an excellent university. It has opened many doors for me to the extent that I rarely fear rejection before interview, even during the recent trying times for the graduate recruitment market. So, yes, with me so far? It's fantastic, not only is the university academically very strong, but I also had the best time of my life there.

The conclusions you’ve reached though, they’re just strange. I didn’t say only Oxbridge mattered, I state that if you’re the sort of person who quite enjoys walking up to people, and telling them about your fantastic achievements – only Oxbridge is going to get a consistent ‘reaction’ throughout. At the end of the day, I am sure you agree with me – which is why you spend so long trying to spread LSE propaganda. Why do you think that Oxbridge students are not doing likewise, er…because they don’t need to perhaps?

Also, your comments on people not knowing of the Oxford/Cam brand name are just silly. Sure there may well be such people, I’m currently in Japan, I am sure there are many such people, but typically these are the sort of people who are not aware that most of the world's population actually lives outside of Japan. I’m sure you can find quite a few Americans who think along those lines too, that would be very impressive Hewie Bottom line is, when foreign students learn the English language, Oxford is one of the earliest words they come across, I’ve taught various nationalities and Oxford is as famous as they come. My point was NOT that only Oxbridge matter, but rather that if you like to rattle on and on about your fantastic university, perhaps to make yourself feel big – then Oxford would be ideal.
That Tomhitchings suggested that LSE would give him an ‘ego boost’ and that he’d just love to tell people he is/was an LSE student – I just thought that if this is so, then he’s probably heading for the wrong place. It’s quite amusing, as I can use YOU as support for my point, just look at how often you’re having to promote the university just for a good ole ego boast, with Oxford your exercise would have been a whole lot easier.


Yet a week ago this is what he said in a typically forthright post : 'Infact, one of the major surprises for me has been that the hype surrounding the LSE has actually been accurate, it really does open doors.....'

Still, who cares, maybe consistency is an over -rated virtue..
Just read the above, you may need to go over it twice before it manages to penetrate your brain. The LSE does open doors, although actually it isn’t the brand alone working wonders. That post in which I made that above-mentioned claim, I also remember suggesting that “this is particularly the case if you obtain a high classification”. So, maybe context is an over-rated virtue, and that selective thinking is the order of the day. There aren’t that many people though who actually believe that the top classification in your degree from the LSE is not likely to open doors. However, I can think of people who’ve achieved similar degree results from other highly regarded universities are all the UK, including Warwick and Bath who have done just as well. Perhaps this surprises you, but it includes a former Law student from Warwick who is currently studying at Harvard, a Maths student at MIT, many other students at various Investment Banks, top Law Firms and the major Accounting Firms. So, er…clearly there are graduate schools/employers interested in you even if you’re not from LSE, hey, I know that may prove difficult for you to understand – so I shan’t go on about it, may confuse you even more.


Feminism: by hypocrites for hypocrites..
Each time I read this, I just think youre a bit of an idiot
0
Kcaj
Badges: 0
#32
Report 15 years ago
#32
I personally chose which universities I appied to based purely upon University Challenge appearances. Screw research facilities or famous alumni (cough The Jackal cough) this is what employers will be interested in: UNIVERSITY CHALLENGE.
0
J.S.
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#33
Report 15 years ago
#33
(Original post by cel)
well...i agree what u've said...but the thing is i dun really wanna live in london and lse is so small compared to warwick and bath!i prefer a campus uni.....
does it matter a lot to employers if u r from lse or warwick/bath? cos bath does hav placements in my course so i think work experience might be useful!
and for the course itself, do u think lse has better teaching and its course structure is better?

Ahh anyway, enough of this nonsense. Let’s at least try and be of helpful to the original poster :P My first advice would be to avoid listening to that WAS Hewins, I’m sure he’s a nice guy and all but his extraordinary love for the LSE seems to have clouded his judgement.

The choice is between LSE Management and WBS.

Lets look at the variety of factors, which are likely to be of concern to you:


Prestige and Reputation:

LSE is a very prestigious school, which has had an illustrious history. Its research output is considerable, infact research is the first priority of the school and this is the impression you will constantly be under during your time there. One thing I love about the LSE is the ‘historical feel’ of the place, just knowing so many great people have studied there, have been associated with the place and etc. However, some people seem to let this get to their heads, I mean it’s nice, but an undergraduate must *never* forget that they’re not a high profile research fellow with a ton of citations in prestigious journals all over the world. You’re there, on the most part, to enjoy yourself, intellectually as well as socially and then to leave university with something that’s going to lead you closer to your ambitions outside of university – whatever they may be.
Warwick University was founded in 1965, alongside several other HE institutions. It has done exceptionally well, and the WBS from which you’re holding an offer now has an exchange scheme with Wharton Biz School (which is probably within the top 3 b-schools in the world) Although, it has done well not due to its fabulous teaching, rather a similar model to the LSE, i.e. it too is a massively research orientated university. It’s an excellent multi-faculty university (another contrast which you may wish to take into account), it has very many strong points. Rather like the LSE many of its students are very ‘corporate minded’, at Warwick it does sometimes seem as though the corporations effectively own/run the place- for instance even the student Cinema is sponsored by Accenture, and there’s also a programme for gifted youth run by Goldman Sachs.



Student and Course standards:

LSE is the more selective university, although especially and more importantly at graduate level. The student intake is more similar at undergrad level, between the two. At both, there’s a sizeable proportion of people who are at best ‘ordinary’, then the vast majority who are intelligent and ambitious. At the top end of both, you get some seriously exceptional people, and this is where I think the real difference between LSE and Warwick would lie, at the top the LSE is more impressive. I’ve great respect for the top 10% or so of the LSE, exceptionally intelligent, you can just see in an instance that they’re likely to do very well in wherever their ambitions take them. Although, perhaps the LSE is let down by having a fair share of cowboy international students who spend 10 hours a day at the library to battle through with a 3rd class degree- but hey, to be fair they bring in a hell of a lot of money.

This brings me to the differences in student make up. LSE has a huge graduate school, so a great proportion of its students are postgrad, many of whom are from abroad. Warwick is far more white middle class, relatively lacking in student diversity.


Employment Prospects:

Excellent, whether you go with LSEM or WBS. They’re two institutions which are very much near the top of a set of universities which employers seem to prioritise. If you were to ask me the question, all things being equal, who is a prospective company likely to interview, an LSE Management student, or somebody from WBS, I’d say both in the vast majority of cases, or neither (in VERY exceptional circumstances). I can confidently say as long as you do well on your degree, and have pursued a large range of extra curricula activities, been able to develop key attributes which are highly sought after, i.e. speaking in public, numerical skills and the like then you will be able to get an interview for almost any graduate programme. This would apply to both. I said neither in that if it’s some Barristers’ chamber which is looking for 1 or 2 people out of a few thousand applicants then there’s likely to be a heavy bias in favour of a first class from Oxbridge. However, other than in such extreme scenarios a good degree from either is likely to get you through to an interview. Also, do remember that university/degree is only ever likely to get you an interview, it does no more than that.

For more on what I think regarding this point, see:

http://www.uk-learning.net/t36999.html

Location:

LSE is in central London, near Holborn Station. It’s an excellent location, there is so much to do – find yourself a nice attractive gal early on and you’ll have the time of your life (or guy, depending on your gender/sexual orientation) It’s fairly expensive, although if you are keen to avoid accumulating huge debt, this too can be done. Overall, do not let the extra cost of living in London put you off, I’m sure you can make it up easily once you get working.

Warwick is based in Coventry, a small city in the Midlands. It’s not boring, as Birmingham City is roughly 20 mins away via rail. The place is a hell of a lot cheaper though. The major difference is that Warwick is a campus based university, everything is in sight, you can actually survive on campus without really going anywhere for the entire academic year- not that I personally would recommend this!

That's the major difference. At the LSE though, chances are that you'll be quite far away from the university campus, if not during your first year then more than likely during your 2nd especially, perhaps even the 3rd - this makes it difficult sometimes getting access to the uni facilities, especially the Gym!

Ah well, if you have any specific questions, ask away Hope this has been of help to you.

Best of Luck.
0
currency_westlake
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#34
Report 15 years ago
#34
(Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
TomHitchings said: "10) My Ego: I want to be able to say to people "I went to the London School of Economics"...... It practically guarantees you the job/placement/whatever when you apply for something."

I was responding to that
I've already conceded that "practically guarantees" was not the best word to use in that remark. However, I have chosen to still stand by the intention of my original rehetoric, and if you wish to respond please do so but with regard to my longer post where I explain why I think that an LSE degree can be worth so much.

Interesting debate everyone!
0
W.A.S Hewins
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#35
Report 15 years ago
#35
1/Ok, JS, I've tried being polite to you but it's a waste of time: you're an arrogant, patronising, long-winded twat who uses cheap debating tricks...You have become very boring..

2/Fame and influence in the modern world are complex. A)If you go to most countries most educated people will have heard of Oxford and Cambridge, many others will not have done so. The fact that there are considerable numbers who will know nothing about Oxbridge does not mean that Oxbridge is not famous: it's just that fame is a weird beast; only a handful of people/things in the modern world are known to everybody: so please no more of the 'I've met people who've never heard of LSE so therefore that proves it's not famous...' I've met people who've never heard of Samuel Beckett yet he 's still one of the most celebrated and written about writers of the last 150 years. B)Many people in many countries have heard of LSE, despite the fact that it is a small, specialist institution of relatively recent origin (as universities go), many others will not have heard of it. C)Very few people in most countries will have heard of the universities of Bath and Warwick.

3/There are reasons for this difference:when challenged JS could not produce one single bit of evidence to show that Bath and Warwick had made any real impact on the outside world. It's all Thomas the Tank Engine league table stuff, often derived from the writings of our notoriously innumerate media hacks.

4/It is wishful thinking to assume that Bath and Warwick can match LSE, it is also a fantasy to assume that LSE does not have a global brand name: given its impact it would be weird if it didn't have such a brand name. Why else do outstanding students from across the globe compete for entry?

Just yesterday the Times of India carried the following quote from the head of Presidency College, one of that country's most elite institutions, and it is typical of the kind of comment about LSE that you find in international media:

'It is just not enough to be a brilliant student to enter LSE; there is stiff competition between applicants from across the world...”
0
W.A.S Hewins
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#36
Report 15 years ago
#36
One more point for smart arse JS, and the argument that support for LSE is a sign of lack of confidence in the place (ie compensation for feelings of inadequcy etc): if Oxbridge is so good, why does JS spend so much time promoting it? He can't make a post without genuflecting in that direction. Why does the forum carry special Oxbridge threads when so few people apply there? Oxbridge people are always harping on about their student days.Does this mean that Oxbridge is inferior and people feel the need to endlessly promote it to make up for its inferiority complex? Come off it.

The reason some of us feel the need to speak up for LSE is that so many people in the UK feel a need to take a swipe at it, and what is amazing is that their comments are usually fact free: if they knew something about the place it would make a difference. Many of them still seem to be under the impression that it teaches only economics for instance!! Then there's all the other 'arguments': it's outstanding for research so it must be crap at teaching, it has lots of overseas students so it must 'sell' them degrees, it doesn't have lots of squash courts so the environment must be crap, the milkman has never heard of it so therefore it's not as well known as it pretends and needs a good slap down..

If you don't want to hear so much in defence of LSE then stop knocking it, JS: it's easier not to make posts than to make them...


Feminism: by hypocrites for hypocrites...
0
W.A.S Hewins
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#37
Report 15 years ago
#37
[QUOTE=Jonatan]Having said that, lets not forget who is currently Britains prime mminister and where he studied...

Let's not forget also that his first port of call, when he needs policy advice, is LSE, a place which he also has used to make several major policy speeches, and a place which has produced a very high per capita proportion of MPs in the institution in which he works...
0
Igor
Badges: 0
#38
Report 15 years ago
#38
[QUOTE=W.A.S Hewins]
(Original post by Jonatan)
Having said that, lets not forget who is currently Britains prime mminister and where he studied...

Let's not forget also that his first port of call, when he needs policy advice, is LSE, a place which he also has used to make several major policy speeches, and a place which has produced a very high per capita proportion of MPs in the institution in which he works...
yep, and let's not forget director of which school was the mastermind behind the current prime minister's ideology...
0
W.A.S Hewins
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#39
Report 15 years ago
#39
(Original post by Igor)
yep, and let's not forget director of which school was the mastermind behind the current prime minister's ideology...
It certainly wasn't Warwick or Bath...
0
Igor
Badges: 0
#40
Report 15 years ago
#40
(Original post by W.A.S Hewins)
It certainly wasn't Warwick or Bath...
of course it was... everyone knows that Giddens is not at all linked to the LSE
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Did you vote in the 2019 general election?

Yes (281)
47.07%
No (69)
11.56%
I'm not old enough (247)
41.37%

Watched Threads

View All