Cameron is acting like a coward on Ukraine

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RoyalMarine
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So Russia can invade and split nations as they like?If we let Putin or anyone else behave like this,he will go on until there is nothing left.Also notice that extremist right parties are probably going to win in EU nations so the message we are giving is that anyone can invade other nations without retaliation.
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gladders
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While I do not favour Russians doing what you say, what do you propose Cameron do?
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yo radical one
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Agreed

The moment Russian troops entered Crimea, NATO forces should have been all over Ukraine, I mean literally thousands of US foot soldiers,British SAS, destroyers in the Black sea, Chechen and Tartar separatists armed and trained by the CIA etc
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presidential_
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(Original post by yo radical one)
Agreed

The moment Russian troops entered Crimea, NATO forces should have been all over Ukraine, I mean literally thousands of US foot soldiers,British SAS, destroyers in the Black sea, Chechen and Tartar separatists armed and trained by the CIA etc
wouldn't that just result to more conflict, and possibly lead to a much bigger war?
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yo radical one
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(Original post by presidential_)
wouldn't that just result to more conflict, and possibly lead to a much bigger war?
China would not back Russia on this and Russia couldn't take America, let alone America plus Europe

You can't really prove the CIA is arming the various groups in Russia, so that would have been fine

and it would have been unlikely for the troops to open fire, I believe Russia would have backed down
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Old_Simon
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Call me selfish but I would be pleased to see out my life without being inconvenienced by a World War.
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yo radical one
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(Original post by Old_Simon)
Call me selfish but I would be pleased to see out my life without being inconvenienced by a World War.
There is much more justification for that than there is the Iraq war tbh, Ukraine is a sovereign nation which has just been invaded. Ethnic Ukrainians are being abused now in the places which Russia is now occupying, it seems to wrong to just abandon them.
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Jacob-C
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(Original post by yo radical one)
The moment Russian troops entered Crimea, NATO forces should have been all over Ukraine, I mean literally thousands of US foot soldiers,British SAS, destroyers in the Black sea, Chechen and Tartar separatists armed and trained by the CIA etc
Oh dear. I don't think that you understand that a military presense from NATO forces would probably just provoke separatists and then you've got a full scale war on the European continent. How would you feel if the US military pulled up on your street out of the blue? I'd imagine if you were someone who wanted nothing to do with them, you'd take up arms against them.

Diplomacy is the route at the moment. No need for boots on the ground with the current situation.
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Per
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What can you expect from someone with facial features barely distinguishable from a lump of mashed potato? He's practically an invertebrate.
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Old_Simon
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(Original post by yo radical one)
There is much more justification for that than there is the Iraq war tbh, Ukraine is a sovereign nation which has just been invaded. Ethnic Ukrainians are being abused now in the places which Russia is now occupying, it seems to wrong to just abandon them.
Ukraine is a far away land about which we know nothing.
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yo radical one
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(Original post by Jacob-C)
Oh dear. I don't think that you understand that a military presense from NATO forces would probably just provoke separatists and then you've got a full scale war on the European continent. How would you feel if the US military pulled up on your street out of the blue? I'd imagine if you were someone who wanted nothing to do with them, you'd take up arms against them.

Diplomacy is the route at the moment. No need for boots on the ground with the current situation.
If Russia sent in their troops who in many cases are little more than rapacious thugs, I'd pretty damn happy to see US soldiers there to keep them in check. American troops are far from perfect, but Russia is awful when it comes to human rights. Just remember how they were when they invaded Georgia 6 years ago.
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gladders
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This isn't Call of Duty. Bringing out a bigger gun doesn't always lead to the side with the smaller gun backing down. They have to save face, which is extremely important for Russians. They also have less patience for valuing peace in the same way we do. I'm pretty sure responding too aggressively immediately would lead to extremely rapid escalation and most likely a general European war.

I'm not saying we should exclude force, but that should be the absolute last resort, not only as holders of the moral high ground, but as diplomats and rationalists too.
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yo radical one
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(Original post by Old_Simon)
Ukraine is a far away land about which we know nothing.
It's part of Europe and full of people with feelings, aspirations etc heck they could have been joining the EU in a few years...
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Jacob-C
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(Original post by yo radical one)
If Russia sent in their troops who in many cases are little more than rapacious thugs, I'd pretty damn happy to see US soldiers there to keep them in check.
By that statement I can only take it that you wish to see a war within Ukraine/Crimea. We do not need more violence in this world and starting fights with other countries is not something we want to be embroiled in, as recent conflicts have taught us.
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yo radical one
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(Original post by Jacob-C)
By that statement I can only take it that you wish to see a war within Ukraine/Crimea. We do not need more violence in this world and starting fights with other countries is not something we want to be embroiled in, as recent conflicts have taught us.
What I want is for Russia to withdraw its forces and let the Ukrainian people go

Letting these soldiers run riot among innocent civilians is not reducing violence, it's pretending that letting the little guy get beaten up by the big guy is a moral stance to take rather than a cowardly sociopathic stance.
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gladders
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(Original post by yo radical one)
Agreed

The moment Russian troops entered Crimea, NATO forces should have been all over Ukraine, I mean literally thousands of US foot soldiers,British SAS, destroyers in the Black sea, Chechen and Tartar separatists armed and trained by the CIA etc
Under what Article of the North Atlantic Treaty would NATO troops be allowed to deploy into a non-NATO country?
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yo radical one
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(Original post by gladders)
Under what Article of the North Atlantic Treaty would NATO troops be allowed to deploy into a non-NATO country?
They have performed operations in both Libya and Pakistan and I highly doubt either of those countries are in NATO...
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Old_Simon
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(Original post by gladders)
Under what Article of the North Atlantic Treaty would NATO troops be allowed to deploy into a non-NATO country?
Presumably the same Article that committed NATO to errrrrrrrrrrr Afghanistan.
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gladders
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Also: Why single out Cameron? He's the leader of just one NATO member state. The UK is militarily significant, but there's only one country's military the Russians take seriously, and that's the US. Cameron could stick his neck out and offer the services of Her Majesty's Armed Forces to Kiev, but without the other states alongside, it would be reckless endangerment of British lives without any evidence that it would help matters.

Likely, it would inflame them: with foreign troops on Ukrainian soil, the Russians would have no qualms at occupying the protesting areas of eastern Ukraine. You've just played into their hands - partition of Ukraine would follow.
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gladders
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(Original post by yo radical one)
They have performed operations in both Libya and Pakistan and I highly doubt either of those countries are in NATO...
Extremely limited no-fly zone, and enforcing a UN Security Council resolution.

(Original post by Old_Simon)
Presumably the same Article that committed NATO to errrrrrrrrrrr Afghanistan.
I believe that came under the 'a NATO ally has been attacked' clause.

Both of these are scenarios not repeatable here.
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