When did real leftists get replaced by capitalist lite globalists?

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yourFuture
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It seems strong leftists like Tony Benn have died out and in their place a bunch of weak pansies pandering to multinational corporate interests have taken their place.

Is there any hope for ordinary people?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by yourFuture)
It seems strong leftists like Tony Benn have died out and in their place a bunch of weak pansies pandering to multinational corporate interests have taken their place.

Is there any hope for ordinary people?
Have you ever thought the world grew up and the people realised that leftist policies aren't wanted?
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felamaslen
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When Communism was ended by a guy who recognised it for what it was.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by yourFuture)
It seems strong leftists like Tony Benn have died out and in their place a bunch of weak pansies pandering to multinational corporate interests have taken their place.

Is there any hope for ordinary people?
Tony Benn himself was not immune to corporate interests. He spent a lot of his life trying to help BAC (later BAE) to develop and market Concorde, which since it was a conveyance for the rich only, wasn't a particularly socialist thing. It was a total coincidence that he spent most of that time being an MP for the Bristol seat where most of the workers lived. :lol:

Don't despair though. There is a genuine worldwide left with a deep and intelligent critique of capitalism, which after all has just pitched much of the world through a profound financial crisis, which it still has not properly emerged from, left debts at staggeringly high levels for both people and governments and enriched only a tiny, tiny minority to levels not seen since feudal times.

This 'new left' is winning many people over, which is why reactionary forces like UKIP are so angry and vocal. It is also clear that people around the world are no longer fooled by much of the warmongering and lies that act as tools and justifications for capitalism. Even in the US, it has become way harder for the authorities to convince the population that wars are a great idea.
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yourFuture
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Tony Benn himself was not immune to corporate interests. He spent a lot of his life trying to help BAC (later BAE) to develop and market Concorde, which since it was a conveyance for the rich only, wasn't a particularly socialist thing. It was a total coincidence that he spent most of that time being an MP for the Bristol seat where most of the workers lived. :lol:

Don't despair though. There is a genuine worldwide left with a deep and intelligent critique of capitalism, which after all has just pitched much of the world through a profound financial crisis, which it still has not properly emerged from, left debts at staggeringly high levels for both people and governments and enriched only a tiny, tiny minority to levels not seen since feudal times.

This 'new left' is winning many people over, which is why reactionary forces like UKIP are so angry and vocal. It is also clear that people around the world are no longer fooled by much of the warmongering and lies that act as tools and justifications for capitalism. Even in the US, it has become way harder for the authorities to convince the population that wars are a great idea.
UKIP are anti EU so am i, it is just a corporate machine.
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Liquid27
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Tony Benn himself was not immune to corporate interests. He spent a lot of his life trying to help BAC (later BAE) to develop and market Concorde, which since it was a conveyance for the rich only, wasn't a particularly socialist thing. It was a total coincidence that he spent most of that time being an MP for the Bristol seat where most of the workers lived. :lol:

Don't despair though. There is a genuine worldwide left with a deep and intelligent critique of capitalism, which after all has just pitched much of the world through a profound financial crisis, which it still has not properly emerged from, left debts at staggeringly high levels for both people and governments and enriched only a tiny, tiny minority to levels not seen since feudal times.

This 'new left' is winning many people over, which is why reactionary forces like UKIP are so angry and vocal. It is also clear that people around the world are no longer fooled by much of the warmongering and lies that act as tools and justifications for capitalism. Even in the US, it has become way harder for the authorities to convince the population that wars are a great idea.
Any evidence that it was 'capitalism' per se which caused the economic crash?

Even given what you have said? Is there any actually meaningful alternative to capitalism?

Of course not, people will spewl anti-capitalist nonensense whilst they continue to enjoy the privileges of capitalism in every hour of every day of their lives.

Champagne socialists are truly the Pharisees of the modern age - They are the greatest hypocrites and deceivers of the modern world
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ChaoticButterfly
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Well the NHS is a thing.
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russellsteapot
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I think it was when luxury became accessible to most people, and they realised that even though the rich get richer under capitalism, the poor get richer as well, and they have more nice things. Consumer goods have the power to turn lefties into capitalism-loving consumers, because people realise that capitalism makes a far better world than communism.

Were it up to the socialist idiots of the 1970s and 1980s, I'd probably have ended up working down a mine, costing the taxpayer far more than my value, to feed a crippled economy with a couple of a days a week worth of power while the rest of the world overtook us. Left wing politics is essentially a way to keep the workers in a pit and drag the elite into the pit with them.

The fact that most 'lefties' these days are privileged kids crippled by middle class guilt but unwilling to sacrifice their privilege says much for proper leftist politics. It's a broken, useless set of ideas which are completely at odds with human nature.
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DaveSmith99
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The left has traditionally been internationalist.
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anarchism101
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The left accepted the 'consumerist bargain' after the Second World War. When the only effort at a working capitalism fell apart in the 1970s, they had nothing left.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by DaveSmith99)
The left has traditionally been internationalist.
internationalist as in increased protectionism .

I think you're mixing up communist support to other communists as internationalism.

Many if the traits of the left are anti internationalist. Anti free trade etc.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by russellsteapot)
I think it was when luxury became accessible to most people, and they realised that even though the rich get richer under capitalism, the poor get richer as well, and they have more nice things. Consumer goods have the power to turn lefties into capitalism-loving consumers, because people realise that capitalism makes a far better world than communism.

Were it up to the socialist idiots of the 1970s and 1980s, I'd probably have ended up working down a mine, costing the taxpayer far more than my value, to feed a crippled economy with a couple of a days a week worth of power while the rest of the world overtook us. Left wing politics is essentially a way to keep the workers in a pit and drag the elite into the pit with them.

The fact that most 'lefties' these days are privileged kids crippled by middle class guilt but unwilling to sacrifice their privilege says much for proper leftist politics. It's a broken, useless set of ideas which are completely at odds with human nature.
It's more that the traditional bastions of working class solidarity, the trade unions, were cleverly and systematically crushed. Huge resources were deployed to perform that task. Not for nothing.

The result is what we see now - millions of powerless people forced into low wages. The same is increasingly happening to the middle class in many countries, including Britain - marginalisation in hourly-paid contract jobs, total loss of job security, declining and stolen pension schemes and spiralling housing costs.

It's not so much that only the privileged protest, it's more a case that they are the only ones left with the ability to protest. However, it is also a lie of the right wing media that the only protesters are wealthy. Most of the protest in recent years in many countries has come from ordinary people.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by yourFuture)
UKIP are anti EU so am i, it is just a corporate machine.
UKIP won't change corporatism. I agree that the EU is all too often a tool for corporate lobbyists - that's an argument for making it more accountable and democratic. UKIP are withdrawalists, who want to destroy an international institution that does have merits, albeit many faults as well.

Regardless of the in/out argument, UKIP are only posing as 'left'. They are able to do this because the Labour Party have largely abandoned working class issues. UKIP don't mean it though - they are really a branch of the Tory party and they are very pro-business, in favour of cutting taxes on the wealthy and raising them on most working people, etc.
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DaveSmith99
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
internationalist as in increased protectionism .

I think you're mixing up communist support to other communists as internationalism.

Many if the traits of the left are anti internationalist. Anti free trade etc.
Well it depends, traditionally the left was anti-protectionism and pro-free trade. Marx essentially saw increased competition as lower profits for capitalists and would speed up its downfall, most of the left still hold his idea that we're bound more by class than nationality. The Labour party in this country was initially anti-protectionism and the torys pro, it became more fragmented post-WWII as most trade unions were opposed to the EEC. Now most of the left are probably anti-EU, but that's more because of what the EU has become than a rejection of internationalism. They don't want protectionism, they want internationalism that is in the interests of the workers and not in the interests of the capitalists. We don't really have much of a left in this country anymore, but I don't think any of the left parties we have are protectionist.
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SocialistIC
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(Original post by yourFuture)
It seems strong leftists like Tony Benn have died out and in their place a bunch of weak pansies pandering to multinational corporate interests have taken their place.

Is there any hope for ordinary people?
There is some truth to this. There's still Chomsky who I think is one of the greatest Leftist thinkers of all time. I suppose if you judge the Left by the Labour Party then it's completely reasonable to be a bit worried about the Left.
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yourFuture
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
UKIP won't change corporatism. I agree that the EU is all too often a tool for corporate lobbyists - that's an argument for making it more accountable and democratic. UKIP are withdrawalists, who want to destroy an international institution that does have merits, albeit many faults as well.

Regardless of the in/out argument, UKIP are only posing as 'left'. They are able to do this because the Labour Party have largely abandoned working class issues. UKIP don't mean in though - they are really a branch of the Tory party and they are very pro-business, in favour of cutting taxes on the wealthy and raising them on most working people, etc.
All you would have to do is vote them in for one election then vote them out 5 years later.
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JamesGibson
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Since Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and the end of old liberalism/Keynesian policies in both the Democratic Party and the Labour Party.
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Falcatas
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(Original post by JamesGibson)
Since Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and the end of old liberalism/Keynesian policies in both the Democratic Party and the Labour Party.
You say that like Keynesian economics were a good thing.

The important thing the topic says is "capitalist lite globalists". Which is pretty much what people call "neo-liberalism".

Like I have said before, there is a difference between supporting free markets and capitalism in its current form.

State-tinkered capitalism leads to monopolies and high concentrations of corporate power. When people claim about the big corporations and the evil bankers they fail to realise it the government that prop this system up.
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Cylos
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To put the series of events in its simplest form:
  • High inflation and unemployment in the 70's
  • Right wing parties reacted to these conditions by shifting to the ideas of Hayek and Friedman- creating neo-liberal parties
  • This new ideological variation won in elections and was politically successful
  • Traditional left wing parties fragmented over policy, between remaining with Keynesian social democratic policy or with a modernised variation
  • The modernised variation won over the party, forming the Third Way. Accepting neo-liberal policy whilst attempting to promote socialist values through the market.
  • This brand was successful in elections and accepted by the respective party.


The modernists came about due to their perceived pragmatism.
The 'real' left has since, in Britain, failed to offer a serious viable alternative due to its nature to break into sectarianism.
I could argue more about its implications if you want and whether it will remain like this.
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Bossuet
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Have you ever thought the world grew up and the people realised that leftist policies aren't wanted?
Ah you're one of these naive people who thinks liberation is just a stage in youth that one grows out of, have some advice: leave the politics to the visionaries: because if it wasn't for them, well if it wasn't for these people who said: 'That's ridiculous, that's not how it is that's how it's been made' we would still be living in the stone age.
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