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What I think About Top Up Fees

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Howard

What about the Open University? It's the largest University in the UK and offers tons of very good quality degree programs that can be studied at pretty much any pace and really don't cost a fortune.

The OU will almost certainly benefit from the top up fees (and about time too) - suddenly paying to study part time with them will seem like a good buy (although it's a shame that part time fees won't be put on the same basis at FT - ie they'll still have to pay up front with no opportunity to defer some/part/all of the fees until after graduation).

Reply 41

Howard

Pencil Queen

I think studying with the OU is a good buy anyway. I did my law degree with the OU. It took me 4 years but at the princely sum of $1350 a year I didn't feel ripped off. It obviously also allowed me to carry on making a living!

I don't know why more students who claim to merely crave knowledge but who worry about the "debt" of the FT solution don't consider the OU or similar distance learning colleges.

Reply 42

randdom

Do you think that people who study things like medicine and other important subjects where we have a shortage of skills should have to pay for their education.

Reply 43

Bezza

randdom

Do you think that people who study things like medicine and other important subjects where we have a shortage of skills should have to pay for their education.

Regarding medicine I don't think they should have to pay, or at least not as much because we will all benefit from their skills. Also, the pay in the NHS is so poor that many med students either go into private healthcare or leave medicine completely. The problem though is where do you draw the line?

Reply 44

Clearing and Applications Advisor

randdom

Do you think that people who study things like medicine and other important subjects where we have a shortage of skills should have to pay for their education.

Nurses, Midwives, Occupational Therapists, Physiotherapists, Radiologists, Podiatrists and a bunch of other health professionals (and Social workers) all currently get their fees paid for them by the NHS (and local authorities in the case of social workers).

If employers want skilled workers and want to ensure that there is a steady supply of skilled workers (espeically in professions which aren't particularly popular among 18 yr olds) then I see no reason why they shouldn't start up similar schemes to incentivise the courses they want (I'm speaking mainly here about engineering courses but there is scope for this sort of system to be adopted by all types of business).

If there is a shortage of skills in any industry it's surprising how quickly people are to latch on and study those skills for their own benefit - lets face it there are hundreds of people learning to become plumbers right now because the press were talking about shortages, like there were thousands of people 10 years ago suddenly interested in computer related courses. A guaranteed income is a very strong incentive...and a reasonable debt that can be very easily repaid over time at extremely affordable rates is not a very strong disincentive....unless you don't understand the terms of repayment in which case should you *really* be looking to study at university?

Reply 45

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Bezza

Exactly - should the NHS pay for med students fees in exchange for paying *all* doctors slightly less or should the med students pay a fair proportion (bearing in mind that the final two years of a med degree *cost* over £27,000 in total - only £6000 of which will be paid for by the student).

Reply 46

Howard

Bezza

That's true. But they will benefit from higher earnings won't they? So it's not a one way street.

We also benefit from the skills of a lot of other people. If you ever return home from a weeks trip abroad in mid winter and find your house flooded you'll appreciate the skills of a plumber. In fact, you will fall at his feet and worship him as the Lord as he takes up his ratchet to save what remains of your home. Should plumbers receive free education?

I don't honestly see what's so special about doctors or why they should be treated like some holy cow.

Reply 47

Bezza

Pencil Queen

I didn't know this, I must have been thinking of people leaving because they're overworked. If this is already happening, then it's a good thing. You don't mention doctors - is this an omission from the list or do they have to pay themselves? As they have the longest courses and are probably the most important, I'd have thought they'd be the first to get money.

Reply 48

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Bezza

Doctors have to pay for their own fees or rather they pay a very small proportion of the costs of their education - £45,000 to educate a doctor - £51,000 if they intercalate.

The main reason for this is to do with supply and demand. In the UK as a whole there are 8 applications for each medicine place (and each student is making 4 applications)...approximately 2 students/place...for nursing the ratio is 1.1 applications per place...approximately 0.3 students per place.

Thousands of talanted students each year apply to be doctors - even with no fees *and* a bursary to cover the cost of living (ie they'll PAY you to study nursing) they struggle to attract more applicants than there are places.

Reply 49

Bezza

Howard

If a plumber was to take up an apprenticeship then yes, he would receive free education. The reason I feel doctors are deserving of help is that compared to other jobs with such long hours their pay isn't great, and also they have a very long, expensive course. Unless education becomes free for everyone, there will always be the problem of deciding who does and who doesn't receive help.

Reply 50

Howard

Bezza

Unless education becomes free for everyone, there will always be the problem of deciding who does and who doesn't receive help.

I'd agree. And since IMO fre education for everyone is not feasible any longer and it is, as you say, difficult to decide who is deserving and who isn't, it seems only fair that everyone should make some contribution to the cost of their courses.

Quite frankly if more people were studying independently and on OU type courses as I suggested a few posts ago we could not only pay for these doctor's courses but maybe pay them a small subsistence wage so they don't starve to death.

The problem is too many students absorbing too few resources and nobody really distinguishing between what society needs and what people enjoy studying. Two very different things.

Until someone decides to have a good look at whether Britain needs doctors or art historians we're always going to have a problem.

Reply 51

Bezza

Well said, I agree completely

Reply 52

Mysticmin

I agree with Mr. White and the other people who think 50% of people going to university is ridiculous. At the risk of sounding like a snob, I think we should just wipe out the bottom 20 universities and feed the funding up into the remaining ones.

What is someone going to do with a media degree from Paisley anyway? As for the two tiered system - I'd be perfectly willing to fork out lots of money for a top 5 uni as long as it wasn't paid upfront. If you're clever and ambitious enough then you'll find a way to get into higher education whatever your circumstances, what do you think people do in the majority of other countries? With top up fees there'll be scholarships anyway.

Reply 53

john !!

randdom

The potential problem with Top up fees is that different universities will charge different amounts I believe so the more prestigous universities will be most likely to change more. This will mean that people from lower class backgrounds will be less likely to be able to afford to go to these universities and then you have a two tier university system. People who can afford to go to universities like oxford will and so Oxford will get more money where as people who can't afford will have to go to other universities. These other universities will get less money. This is why I am against them anyway.

That is a fair point, but there is a counterargument:

No matter what the charge of the course, someone who genuinely cannot afford to pay can get upto the full fee paid for.

There will be 3 types of people going to universities in the future:

- those who can afford the (up to) £3000 courses and pay for them.
- those who can afford the £3000 courses but opt for a £2500 course so they can spend the £500 a year on something else. (the important point here is that these people have the choice and there is no two two tier system - that person had the complete ability to pay the whole £3000 and cannot argue that he was unable to)
- those who cannot afford the (up to) £3000 courses and get grants and bursaries so that they can go on to study at university despite their financial background. This reflects the current system.

If people are disuaded by the high prices, then that implies they have the money to pay for their education but would prefer to spend it on something else (nice new TV in the living room... forfit your education, fine with me, so long as you don't complain later down that you were treated unfairly). It's their choice if they want to spend their money. Everyone else will pay, why shouldn't they just because they don't want to? Education is expensive, if they would rather buy something else, I'm not stopping them.

Reply 54

john !!

randdom

There have been studies which have shown that people from backgrounds with less money are more likely to be put off by larger debts. Better universities=more money= people with less money less likely to go

People already have huge debts. The top up fees will add a small amount to that. If the people can't pay, then they get grants and bursaries. People coming out of university can thank their degree for their high paying salary and pay the university the money it deserves for teaching them.

Reply 55

Dajoruna

People with a unviersity degree earn in their life time an estimated £500,000 more. That works out as an extra 10 grand roughly per year of your working life; a few extra thousand in top up fees isn't much to ask really when you look at the long term benefit that people recieve?