What is UKIP and why is everyone so scared of them?
OK, so a little background on this. I've never really been too interested in politics, but suddenly everywhere I go everyone seems to be talking about 'UKIP got loads of seats, what are we going to do' and it's just left me feeling really bemused.
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that). Also, if everyone hates them so much, why are they managing to get so many votes?
Thanks for helping!
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that). Also, if everyone hates them so much, why are they managing to get so many votes?
Thanks for helping!
(edited 9 years ago)
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Original post by Arithmeticae
OK, so a little background on this. I've never really been too interested in politics, but suddenly everywhere I go everyone seems to be talking about 'UKIP got loads of seats, what are we going to do' and it's just left me feeling really bemused.
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that).
Thanks for helping!
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that).
Thanks for helping!
Basically UKIP are a party whose main policy is for us to be withdrawn from the European Union, on the grounds that it's an expensive membership, we can't control our borders for as long as we're members (it's one of the core EU values - free movement between member states), and we have quite a lot of our laws made over in Brussels by the European Parliament, rather than our own UK Parliament.
People don't want UKIP in power for a number of reasons. Some simply don't like Nigel Farage, some take the 'urrr they're racist' stand, their policies for other areas such as the economy aren't quite as developed as parties such as Labour and the Conservatives, as their main focus is withdrawing Britain from the EU.
They got quite a lot of votes in the European elections because of factors such as people being fed up with the whole idea of Europe - as a nation, I think we're on the whole more Eurosceptic than pro-EU. You've got people unhappy with 'mainstream politics', so in other words, they're fed up of what Lib/Lab/Con have to say...and many of the voters are likely to be much older people, who voted in 1973 to join a Trading Union, and NOT a Political Union, so many voted for UKIP for this reason, because they're firmly against EU Membership. The Conservatives are the only other party who can be considered Eurosceptics, but it's a bit wishy washy really, because they're not all anti-EU.
Hope that perhaps helps a bit
Yes, me neither I have no idea who UKIP is
UKIP are an anti-EU party, these were the European elections, as a lot of English people don't like the EU they would rather have UKIP representing us at European Parliament because they are against the EU (particularly it's free movement between EU countries policies).
Original post by Arithmeticae
OK, so a little background on this. I've never really been too interested in politics, but suddenly everywhere I go everyone seems to be talking about 'UKIP got loads of seats, what are we going to do' and it's just left me feeling really bemused.
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that). Also, if everyone hates them so much, why are they managing to get so many votes?
Thanks for helping!
Can someone simply explain to me what UKIP do and why people so scared of having them in power (and no 'urrr they're racist' without any explanation, I've heard enough of that). Also, if everyone hates them so much, why are they managing to get so many votes?
Thanks for helping!
A lot of what they believe is either sexist, homophobic, racist, against workers rights, against equal treatment for women in the workplace, or for privatisation of public services such as the NHS.
Their candidates have said things like gay marriage caused all the floods this winter, Lenny Henry should "go and live in a black country", and been photo'd making nazi salutes.
They don't actually have a manifesto right now because they disowned their 2010 one, and all those candidates have been fired (though they sometimes briefly defend them first, they did for the "gay floods" guy). They're, currently, a single focus party which is "No EU Membership".
(edited 9 years ago)
I'm of the radical left. I'm a properly dyed in the wool socialist. I'm also somewhat Eurosceptic. This is a legitimate position to take - Syriza in Greece, and podemos and Izquierda Unida on the left wing in Spain are v. socialistic but rally against Europe and their ideals of austerity.
You can't really do that in the UK. There was already this notion in the UK that pro-EU was 'more' of a left wing ideology because Labour were for it, whereas the Cons were more reticent. Being anti-EU is now firmly entrenched as a right wing belief in the UK, and I don't like that at all.
More importantly, I despise that they have deliberately twisted the narrative and poisoned the debate. They've worked so, so hard to tie immigration to the EU that nowadays if someone says 'I'm anti-EU', there are instantly question marks. Wtf, is this guy a closet racist or something? It's ****ing awful that this is the case, and I lay the blame almost squarely with UKIP and their insidious campaign tactics over the past 10-15 years.
What scares me about UKIP, what honest to god scares the **** out of me, is the people they attract. Parties around Europe like the Lega Nord, Front National and Golden Dawn are unashamedly bigoted. UKIP aren't quite like that, they face accusations of racism of course but they can always be rebuffed.
But when you look at UKIP supporters, you have people fed up with the main parties who want to protest with their vote. Fine. Then you have people genuinely concerned about Europe and/or immigration. Fine. Then you have the quite large minority who are just racist scum at a grassroots that have flocked to UKIP's banner because they're the best option around.
UKIP are bizarrely proud of being the only party to ban former BNP members from joining. Being the only party for whom this is a necessity tells you everything they need to know! They attract far more scummy bastards than any other party and this is down to their rhetoric and their policies, and UKIP leadership is not anyway near firm enough in condemning these people.
What frightens me about UKIP is amongst all the legitimate grievances they may raise, amongst all the genuine grassroots support, there are a lot of people who feel that a disgusting amount of racism is justified by being party of a group with democratically wielded power; people for whom the party is a platform.
You can't really do that in the UK. There was already this notion in the UK that pro-EU was 'more' of a left wing ideology because Labour were for it, whereas the Cons were more reticent. Being anti-EU is now firmly entrenched as a right wing belief in the UK, and I don't like that at all.
More importantly, I despise that they have deliberately twisted the narrative and poisoned the debate. They've worked so, so hard to tie immigration to the EU that nowadays if someone says 'I'm anti-EU', there are instantly question marks. Wtf, is this guy a closet racist or something? It's ****ing awful that this is the case, and I lay the blame almost squarely with UKIP and their insidious campaign tactics over the past 10-15 years.
What scares me about UKIP, what honest to god scares the **** out of me, is the people they attract. Parties around Europe like the Lega Nord, Front National and Golden Dawn are unashamedly bigoted. UKIP aren't quite like that, they face accusations of racism of course but they can always be rebuffed.
But when you look at UKIP supporters, you have people fed up with the main parties who want to protest with their vote. Fine. Then you have people genuinely concerned about Europe and/or immigration. Fine. Then you have the quite large minority who are just racist scum at a grassroots that have flocked to UKIP's banner because they're the best option around.
UKIP are bizarrely proud of being the only party to ban former BNP members from joining. Being the only party for whom this is a necessity tells you everything they need to know! They attract far more scummy bastards than any other party and this is down to their rhetoric and their policies, and UKIP leadership is not anyway near firm enough in condemning these people.
What frightens me about UKIP is amongst all the legitimate grievances they may raise, amongst all the genuine grassroots support, there are a lot of people who feel that a disgusting amount of racism is justified by being party of a group with democratically wielded power; people for whom the party is a platform.
They got voted for the European elections because people in the UK want to leave the EU. I doubt they will get many seats at all in parliament unless they change. I'm not saying that people supporting UKIP are racist, but a lot of the representatives for UKIP have made racist and homophobic comments. E.g. one of them got caught doing the Nazi salute.
Original post by Arithmeticae
So do you think we would have a similar result in the general elections (or is this just for the European ones?)
No I don't think we will, UKIP are anti EU, most of the country is anti EU therefore people wanted them to be on European parliament. During the general election Farage will have to discuss economic policies etc (something he has continuously said he didn't want to discuss during these elections,) once his manifesto comes out people will start to question him. Keep in mind most people don't care about European Parliament, it doesn't really matter who represents us because even if UKIP won every seat they'd still be a minority in Europe. Having an unproven guy run the country is another matter, people will be reluctant to vote for him in the general election. Think about the Lib Dem hype last election, they did no better than usual despite some opinion polls putting them neck and neck with the Tories. When push comes to shove most people will be scared of change and vote either Tory or Labour.
Original post by Arithmeticae
So, if this is the case (and everyone knows about it), who the hell would choose to vote for them?! Still can't get my head round it !.
!.I assume people that hate the EU more than they care about all of those things. Or just for a protest vote.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by AKell17
UKIP quite often yell about their flagship policies from the rooftops, while others (such as the banning of climate change teaching in schools) slip under the radar and are missed by the people that are voting as a protest
That is mainly because they officially don't have these stances, Farage has disowned the last manifesto they released in 2010 saying that it was 'drivel' and that because he didn't expect to get anywhere in that election he never actually read it, possibly a convenient excuse to detach himself from any involvement with these controversial policies but it can't be challenged and so the media can't really report much on them because Farage would just say it had little to do with him. (I believe most if not all the people involved in writing that manifesto no longer are associated with UKIP.) He will have to write a manifesto and be familiar with it himself if he is to stand a chance in the general elections which is when the media will be able to question him about his non-EU policies.
UKIP want Britain to withdraw from the EU.
Nigel Farage is vilified because he represents a stance which is further right than modern British politics has become accustomed to. Britain is fairly unique in that our political spectrum is fairly narrow, ranging from slightly left of centre to slightly right of centre. Politics is a game of PR and being PC - saying something controversial or that represents a view the political elite do not consider moderate tends to cause a media furore and attempted character assassination, with many people jumping on the bandwagon of hate without really doing their research. I don't agree with what Nige has to say, but to be honest, the blind hatred that comes his way, along with people who look to attack him at every turn without even giving him a chance to speak, is repulsive. If someone is wrong, we should engage them in a calm and rational debate and demonstrate this fact, not shout vitriol over them.
Furthermore, all three parties have good reasons to fear the rise of UKIP. Labour are fundamentally ideologically against UKIP, the Lib Dems are fundamentally pro-EU, and the Tories would potentially be weakened by a loss of support to UKIP in the general elections under the FPTP system of voting.
Many people have voted for UKIP because Farage quite clearly sets out his convictions, which he cleverly backs up with a significant degree of populist politics, creating an image of himself as a 'man of the people' who you'd find after work at your local pub. He thus appeals on two levels. Firstly, he presents himself as an alternative to what many people view as the unappealing, weak, spineless, quasi-homogenous traditional parties, and secondly, he is the one who 'champions the people's cause' in pushing most vociferously for a referendum on EU membership - an issue that many people wish to have their say on.
Nigel Farage is vilified because he represents a stance which is further right than modern British politics has become accustomed to. Britain is fairly unique in that our political spectrum is fairly narrow, ranging from slightly left of centre to slightly right of centre. Politics is a game of PR and being PC - saying something controversial or that represents a view the political elite do not consider moderate tends to cause a media furore and attempted character assassination, with many people jumping on the bandwagon of hate without really doing their research. I don't agree with what Nige has to say, but to be honest, the blind hatred that comes his way, along with people who look to attack him at every turn without even giving him a chance to speak, is repulsive. If someone is wrong, we should engage them in a calm and rational debate and demonstrate this fact, not shout vitriol over them.
Furthermore, all three parties have good reasons to fear the rise of UKIP. Labour are fundamentally ideologically against UKIP, the Lib Dems are fundamentally pro-EU, and the Tories would potentially be weakened by a loss of support to UKIP in the general elections under the FPTP system of voting.
Many people have voted for UKIP because Farage quite clearly sets out his convictions, which he cleverly backs up with a significant degree of populist politics, creating an image of himself as a 'man of the people' who you'd find after work at your local pub. He thus appeals on two levels. Firstly, he presents himself as an alternative to what many people view as the unappealing, weak, spineless, quasi-homogenous traditional parties, and secondly, he is the one who 'champions the people's cause' in pushing most vociferously for a referendum on EU membership - an issue that many people wish to have their say on.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Arithmeticae
So do you think we would have a similar result in the general elections (or is this just for the European ones?)
Rather importantly the British public decided that they didn't want to start moving towards a representative voting system for our general elections back in 2011, and therefore we still use first-past-the-post voting. This means that while UKIP are gaining a lot of support, even if they kept most of it into the general election they'd be unlikely to get enough concentrated support in specific constituencies to get more than a few seats.
It's also worth noting that general elections tend to get turn-out of 60%+, compared to the ~30% for European, and get taken a lot more seriously.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by TheSweatyNerd
They got voted for the European elections because people in the UK want to leave the EU. I doubt they will get many seats at all in parliament unless they change. I'm not saying that people supporting UKIP are racist, but a lot of the representatives for UKIP have made racist and homophobic comments. E.g. one of them got caught doing the Nazi salute.
Let he who is without sin...
The Establishment is no better.
Original post by Arithmeticae
So do you think we would have a similar result in the general elections (or is this just for the European ones?)
In terms of vote share, or in terms of seats?
It's not impossible that UKIP could retain a considerable vote share come the general election. It will be significantly reduced from this election, though, for a number of reasons. People tend not to attach the same importance to European elections as they do to general elections. This has two main effects - people are more prepared to lodge a protest vote, which UKIP has benefited from this time around, and turnout is likely to be lower, allowing for all sorts of strange results. Then there's also the effect of tactical voting in UK general elections. Because of the way elections to the UK parliament work, a vote for UKIP could have the effect of giving Labour a seat in a Labour/Tory marginal, so prospective UKIP voters may elect to give their vote to the Tories instead.
In terms of seats, no, there's no chance that UKIP could win a significant proportion. Again this is down to the voting system in UK general elections - first past the post. The idea of FPTP is that the candidate who achieves the highest vote share wins the seat outright. So, for example, if Labour are on 31%, the Conservatives are on 30% and the Libs are on 15%, Labour wins all. Elections to the European Parliament use a form of proportional representation, though, where the number of seats won should match as closely as possible the vote share of each party. So, if a European region were to return the same result (Lab 31%, Con 30%, Lib 15%), you may get 3 Labour MEPs, 3 Conservative and 1 Lib Dem.
That voting system - first past the post - is an almost insurmountable challenge for UKIP. Their support is spread across the country, rather than being concentrated in any particular constituencies, making it very hard for them to win seats at Westminster. Even if they were to retain the same vote share they got in this election (which I think is highly unlikely), there are only a few seats they could reasonably expect to win in - three way marginals, where the electorate is so divided as to allow a party with under 30% of the vote to steal the seat.
I'd expect UKIP to get their first seats soon (either in the next general election or in some by-election), but they won't win many.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Arithmeticae
Thanks for helping!
Thanks for helping!
You'll never get an unbiased answer on TSR.
Original post by TheSweatyNerd
They got voted for the European elections because people in the UK want to leave the EU. I doubt they will get many seats at all in parliament unless they change. I'm not saying that people supporting UKIP are racist, but a lot of the representatives for UKIP have made racist and homophobic comments. E.g. one of them got caught doing the Nazi salute.
You realise that was a media fiction, right? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-22952950
Grabbing for the camera with one's left arm is a "Nazi salute", just lol.
Original post by thesabbath
You realise that was a media fiction, right? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-22952950
Grabbing for the camera with one's left arm is a "Nazi salute", just lol.
Grabbing for the camera with one's left arm is a "Nazi salute", just lol.
What about the dude who photo shopped himself next to Hitler? Dumb excuse, he is a racist and UKIP can go **** themselves.
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