Should we have an EU referendum in 2015 Watch

Ace123
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Should the UK have an EU referendum in 2015? I would argue yes firstly because we have been waiting years for a vote and also EU reform is not possible with several countries and the EU saying major reform will not occur for 2017. So should we have a 2015 referendum?
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Ace123)
Should the UK have an EU referendum in 2015? I would argue yes firstly because we have been waiting years for a vote and also EU reform is not possible with several countries and the EU saying major reform will not occur for 2017. So should we have a 2015 referendum?
An 'In'-'Out' EU referendum in November 2015 would be possible but i certainly object to the idea of holding one on general election day. Probably better just to hold it with the local elections in 2016 though.
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zippity.doodah
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yes
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TurboCretin
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I honestly doubt most of the electorate understands the issues well enough.
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Green Marble
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Yes already signed
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Green Marble
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(Original post by TurboCretin)
I honestly doubt most of the electorate understands the issues well enough.
You are simply anti democratic. Maybe we should take the vote away for all issues :rolleyes:
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meenu89
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Yes.
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by Green Marble)
You are simply anti democratic. Maybe we should take the vote away for all issues :rolleyes:
No, I'm just pro-education and anti-uninformed-decision-making.
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limetang
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(Original post by TurboCretin)
I honestly doubt most of the electorate understands the issues well enough.
And? That doesn't stop us holding general elections why should it stop us holding a referendum?

Odds are people will stick with the EU for the same reason that scotland will vote no to independence and for the same reason we voted no to AV. Change is scary so we won't vote for it.

With the EU we've genuinely not got a clue what would happen for the simple reason that no country has actually left the EU in it's current form. There is no standardised process, we have no idea what the relationship with the rest of Europe would look like post independence.
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by limetang)
And? That doesn't stop us holding general elections why should it stop us holding a referendum?

Odds are people will stick with the EU for the same reason that scotland will vote no to independence and for the same reason we voted no to AV. Change is scary so we won't vote for it.

With the EU we've genuinely not got a clue what would happen for the simple reason that no country has actually left the EU in it's current form. There is no standardised process, we have no idea what the relationship with the rest of Europe would look like post independence.
I also happen to suspect that the general public doesn't understand political issues sufficiently to cast an adequately motivated vote in the general election, but that's a different matter.

Change isn't just scary. Change is unpredictable, as you point out. I would hope that, in the absence of any real grasp of what the EU is or does, most people would vote 'in' in a referendum to preserve the status quo: better the devil you know. However, I suspect that the people most motivated to vote in such a referendum would be the opinionated minority.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Green Marble)
You are simply anti democratic. Maybe we should take the vote away for all issues :rolleyes:
While there are valid reasons to hold referenda statements like the above "anti-democratic" lead me to believe that some people are unaware of exactly what representative democracy is and that we have a representative democracy rather than a direct democracy and have done for centuries.

I'm sure your actually aware, but it's entirely flawed to call it anti-democratic.
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JG1233
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(Original post by TurboCretin)
I also happen to suspect that the general public doesn't understand political issues sufficiently to cast an adequately motivated vote in the general election, but that's a different matter.

Change isn't just scary. Change is unpredictable, as you point out. I would hope that, in the absence of any real grasp of what the EU is or does, most people would vote 'in' in a referendum to preserve the status quo: better the devil you know. However, I suspect that the people most motivated to vote in such a referendum would be the opinionated minority.
I'm confused, you claim not be anti-democratic but seem completely against anything where the public have a say.

Saying your 'pro-education' is one thing, but you can't force people to learn if they don't want to and you can't take away their right to vote on the fate of their country because of it. Its pretty clear your against leaving the EU, and seem to look at most people who have a different view as just being un-educated.
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Quady
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(Original post by Ace123)
Should the UK have an EU referendum in 2015? I would argue yes firstly because we have been waiting years for a vote and also EU reform is not possible with several countries and the EU saying major reform will not occur for 2017. So should we have a 2015 referendum?
If Britian voted to stay in the EU, would you shut up?
If so I'm all in favour of a vote.
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by JG1233)
I'm confused, you claim not be anti-democratic but seem completely against anything where the public have a say.

Saying your 'pro-education' is one thing, but you can't force people to learn if they don't want to and you can't take away their right to vote on the fate of their country because of it. Its pretty clear your against leaving the EU, and seem to look at most people who have a different view as just being un-educated.
You seem to be reading a lot into what I'm saying. I don't see any conflict between supporting the idea of democracy and simultaneously thinking that people are insufficiently informed about the complexities of economic policy or the EU.

You say I'm 'pretty clearly against leaving the EU' - I'm not. I would class myself as being among those who don't understand enough about the EU to meaningfully vote in a referendum without further research. And I suspect that most people know less about how the EU operates than I do. It's not the kind of thing you can understand from reading the papers from time to time - you have to invest hours in digesting stats and gaining an understanding of the EU's constitutional order. Even if people are capable of doing this I highly doubt the majority invest the time necessary. I can hardly blame them for this - the last thing you want to do at the weekend or when you get back from work is to sit and pore over the TEU, the TFEU, EU agricultural policies, budgets and the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

In spite of that, most people like to have an opinion on the EU. If it isn't being formed by the above sort of reading, my concern is that the void is being filled by propaganda from those on both sides of the debate.
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JG1233
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(Original post by TurboCretin)
You seem to be reading a lot into what I'm saying. I don't see any conflict between supporting the idea of democracy and simultaneously thinking that people are insufficiently informed about the complexities of economic policy or the EU.

You say I'm 'pretty clearly against leaving the EU' - I'm not. I would class myself as being among those who don't understand enough about the EU to meaningfully vote in a referendum without further research. And I suspect that most people know less about how the EU operates than I do. It's not the kind of thing you can understand from reading the papers from time to time - you have to invest hours in digesting stats and gaining an understanding of the EU's constitutional order. Even if people are capable of doing this I highly doubt the majority invest the time necessary. I can hardly blame them for this - the last thing you want to do at the weekend or when you get back from work is to sit and pore over the TEU, the TFEU, EU agricultural policies, budgets and the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

In spite of that, most people like to have an opinion on the EU. If it isn't being formed by the above sort of reading, my concern is that the void is being filled by propaganda from those on both sides of the debate.
But like said, if in a democracy nobody is allowed to have an opinion unless they've researched it before then your not in a democracy.

When people vote in elections half the time they don't even know a large amount of the policies the part they voted for has. Should we get rid of elections then? Or just reserve them for people who can prove they've researched all the options?

Like i've already said, you cannot force the public to research a topic, but in a democracy because of that you cannot remove their ability to have a say in the decision their country is taking. If you start selecting who can and can't have a right to vote, your anti-democratic.
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TurboCretin
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(Original post by JG1233)
But like said, if in a democracy nobody is allowed to have an opinion unless they've researched it before then your not in a democracy.

When people vote in elections half the time they don't even know a large amount of the policies the part they voted for has. Should we get rid of elections then? Or just reserve them for people who can prove they've researched all the options?

Like i've already said, you cannot force the public to research a topic, but in a democracy because of that you cannot remove their ability to have a say in the decision their country is taking. If you start selecting who can and can't have a right to vote, your anti-democratic.
I'm not saying people aren't allowed to have opinions. I'm saying that I'm against having a direct vote on an issue people don't understand. This EU referendum issue is different from the usual participation in representative democracy, in which we vote for given people to represent us and delegate decision-making to them.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
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Green Marble
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(Original post by Rakas21)
While there are valid reasons to hold referenda statements like the above "anti-democratic" lead me to believe that some people are unaware of exactly what representative democracy is and that we have a representative democracy rather than a direct democracy and have done for centuries.

I'm sure your actually aware, but it's entirely flawed to call it anti-democratic.
If there is significant demand for a referendum by the public and no representative party holds a referendum that is undemocratic
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Green Marble)
If there is significant demand for a referendum by the public and no representative party holds a referendum that is undemocratic
Several parties on the ballot are either explicitly anti EU or want a referendum.

Its no more undemocratic not to hold an EU referendum than it is not to hold one on the latest batch of competition regulation passing through parliament.
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Psyk
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I don't personally want a referendum, but it seems it is inevitable and if we're going to have one I'd rather have it sooner rather than later. So yes, I'd prefer one in 2015 to one in 2017.
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Green Marble
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Several parties on the ballot are either explicitly anti EU or want a referendum.

Its no more undemocratic not to hold an EU referendum than it is not to hold one on the latest batch of competition regulation passing through parliament.
Thats a ridiculous statement. People will not vote one issue parties in a general election.

Don't be so obtuse !!
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