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REMOVE A-Level exams or drop University entry requirements.

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Reply 20
Original post by Slumpy
Don't know why you've decided to go off on a tangent at the start there. A levels have been drastically too easy for many years. This was as much unfair to the people doing them (no discrimination existed) as to the people getting mildly shafted now.


Again, look at STEP. School exam which doesn't even come close to what you think. The same is true for the majority of science exams.

Lol. 3-4 I've seen? I'm talking about practically every company at every employment thing I went to at uni (hint: This is a lot of companies).

Google asks for intelligence over all. Jobs tend to ask for what they need. For some, this is people who have shown they can do fairly mind-numbing tasks. For others (in my experience, pretty much all prop shops fit here) want people who can think above having any experience.


Another thing I would like to point out, which will probably give you greater understanding on why I dislike the educational system and think it's useless:

I've always loved computer science, now, first year computer scientists learn basic programming, networking and communication and some hardware components with OS knowledge. Without going to university and without opening books, I was able to know 3/4 of what I was going to learn during my first year before even going to university. However, universities don't care about what you know and look at what they see on a piece of paper... So let's say I get 3 B's when Manchester wants AAB. I don't see why a student with two higher grades is any smarter than me when I have much more knowledge that him... It's statistically proven that 70%+ of computer scientists start university with minimal experience or no experience at all, hindering their chances of employment due to lack of experience and skill.

The same concept can be applied to many other subjects other than subjects that are related to medicine.

Original post by alapa
Just wanna chip In on the btec point. They are not much easier! you have to produce approximately 54 pieces of high calibre coursework over a two year period. Most btecs also have exams and practical assesments throughout both years. Only really rubbish colleges let their students upgrade work constantly. You get one shot at it most of the time. There is still a snooty attitude about btecs in some of the older universities. This is changing now though, universities are realising the advantages of taking on btec students and even oxford has changed its policy to allow btec students onto the courses. They even recognised it as an equivalent to a levels for the first time. Check out oxford admissions if you don't believe me!


I did AS ICT, found it boring and annoying so I dropped down to BTEC ICT, 9/11 of those doing BTECs passed and 3/12 of those doing AS ICT passed.

BTECs are really basic and easy. It's really easy to get marks in them.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by 0xygen
So spending more time memorising content at A-Levels would have a direct affect on their work life and show how willing they are to work? I'm sorry but, if you haven't realised, over 50% of students change their mind on their career path between A2 and graduation, some even after graduation. The students don't even know what they want to do, they just assume that keeping the memorised content in their head is the key to success.

A-Levels don't ease the transition between school and university at all, or help students study more effectively at university... Most students find university much more challenging and completely different from A-Levels, then tell you that "I feel like my A-levels barely helped me with anything".

Also, I've worked multiple jobs and never had to memorise in order to work. I had to have core knowledge and know basic principles and through experience I was able to outperform graduates.

Coursework and piratical hands on exams are much better than written exams on a piece of paper.


Choosing to work hard for A levels in order to get good results is generally a useful reflection of one's wider work ethic in life. That's what I was arguing. It doesn't matter whether they are calculating equations or learning the Iliad word for word in ancient Greek. Those who are likely to put the work in when they are older are likely to put the work in during their A levels, and their results reflect that.

It's not about career paths, it's not even about A level or GCSE knowledge, a ton of it is useless. It's proving to universities that you have the requisite attitude to succeed at their institution. If you work hard throughout your GCSEs and A levels, you'll have a better gauge of how hard you should be working at university and then in your career beyond this.

You are right to point out that nobody memorises at work like they do for A levels. However, if you follow what I'm arguing, I'm stating that what students learn best throughout these processes is grit and determination. To be able to face a bad result and learn from it, turn it around, be willing to put the time and effort into it. That is surely what working life is all about.
Original post by alapa
x Although you're quite correct in that we do accept applications for Computer Science from students with BTECS, they do need to be doing an A Level in Maths along side it. We also, in our guidance, strongly recommend A Levels, or IB or academic equivalent as the best preparation for our courses. We talk more about it here: http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/ugadmissions/why_oxford/standard_conditional_offers.html

Although the course may sound vocational, it is extremely academic in content. Students need to have really developed their mathematical thinking to cope with the demands of the course. Hence, the inclusion of Maths A Level.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 23
Original post by 0xygen
Another thing I would like to point out, which will probably give you greater understanding on why I dislike the educational system and think it's useless:

I've always loved computer science, now, first year computer scientists learn basic programming, networking and communication and some hardware components with OS knowledge. Without going to university and without opening books, I was able to know 3/4 of what I was going to learn during my first year before even going to university. However, universities don't care about what you know and look at what they see on a piece of paper... So let's say I get 3 B's when Manchester wants AAB. I don't see why a student with two higher grades is any smarter than me when I have much more knowledge that him... It's statistically proven that 70%+ of computer scientists start university with minimal experience or no experience at all, hindering their chances of employment due to lack of experience and skill.

The same concept can be applied to many other subjects other than subjects that are related to medicine.



For one, knowledge and intelligence aren't the same. You were even arguing this above. Although if you were incapable of getting an A at school, even with lots of extra knowledge, why would you think you would succeed at the uni course?
It might be true that 70% start with no experience, but your conclusion doesn't follow. Clearly computer scientists are still getting work if you look at the stats.

Original post by Pro Crastination
Choosing to work hard for A levels in order to get good results is generally a useful reflection of one's wider work ethic in life. That's what I was arguing. It doesn't matter whether they are calculating equations or learning the Iliad word for word in ancient Greek. Those who are likely to put the work in when they are older are likely to put the work in during their A levels, and their results reflect that.

It's not about career paths, it's not even about A level or GCSE knowledge, a ton of it is useless. It's proving to universities that you have the requisite attitude to succeed at their institution. If you work hard throughout your GCSEs and A levels, you'll have a better gauge of how hard you should be working at university and then in your career beyond this.

You are right to point out that nobody memorises at work like they do for A levels. However, if you follow what I'm arguing, I'm stating that what students learn best throughout these processes is grit and determination. To be able to face a bad result and learn from it, turn it around, be willing to put the time and effort into it. That is surely what working life is all about.


I agree with your post on the whole, I just think your last paragraph is slightly wrong. Science never required much memorisation at school, whereas my working life has much more memory involved.
Reply 24
Original post by Slumpy
For one, knowledge and intelligence aren't the same. You were even arguing this above. Although if you were incapable of getting an A at school, even with lots of extra knowledge, why would you think you would succeed at the uni course?
It might be true that 70% start with no experience, but your conclusion doesn't follow. Clearly computer scientists are still getting work if you look at the stats.



I agree with your post on the whole, I just think your last paragraph is slightly wrong. Science never required much memorisation at school, whereas my working life has much more memory involved.


We may gain different experiences and see stuff in different ways. Work is more of application and time management than learning. (That's how I see it atleast)

Also, Computer Scientists are barely finding jobs... If you check online statistics, all say that there are too many Computer Science graduates who aren't able to find a job. I spoke with people at Microsoft and some at Cisco, they both said that at the end of the day, an employee is measured by the quality of his work and his productivity levels... No ones going to care about the employee background as long as he has enough experience and knows how to apply his experiences to real world scenarios.

It wasn't worded like that, but that's what they were getting at.
Reply 25
Original post by Pro Crastination
Choosing to work hard for A levels in order to get good results is generally a useful reflection of one's wider work ethic in life. That's what I was arguing. It doesn't matter whether they are calculating equations or learning the Iliad word for word in ancient Greek. Those who are likely to put the work in when they are older are likely to put the work in during their A levels, and their results reflect that.

It's not about career paths, it's not even about A level or GCSE knowledge, a ton of it is useless. It's proving to universities that you have the requisite attitude to succeed at their institution. If you work hard throughout your GCSEs and A levels, you'll have a better gauge of how hard you should be working at university and then in your career beyond this.

You are right to point out that nobody memorises at work like they do for A levels. However, if you follow what I'm arguing, I'm stating that what students learn best throughout these processes is grit and determination. To be able to face a bad result and learn from it, turn it around, be willing to put the time and effort into it. That is surely what working life is all about.


I agree that getting good grades at GCSEs and A-Levels may indicate that the student is hard working and determined to succeed. However, that's not my point. My point isn't that students don't work hard for their exams but is that written exams themselves are horrible. I can name a number of students who failed at A-Levels, left the country and are now studying Medicine or Civil Engineering or Architecture... Three of them are currently in their second year.

My point is that A-Level students work hard to prove a point, that they're willing to do whatever it takes to get to wherever they want to be. But, the reality of it is that they're given 9 months to memorise a bunch of facts and equations then just regurgitate them on a piece of paper gaining no actual experience or knowledge over the course of 18 months.

Comparing a physical exam with a written exam:

- A physical physics exam:

Based on physics and mechanics discuss the way in which this glass bottle was design considering volume, lengths, area etc... Or design your own, noting those down and using equations to do so. (I hate maths and I have never studied physics so this is a poor example)

- Physical / Coursework based English exam:

Rather than just memorising 10-15 theories then listing them on paper, go do some research on the history of English and research on different accents/dialects used regionally and globally. Using secondary research, find statistical evidence to use which back up arguments made. This is likely to teach students how to search for information, properly construct an argument and use evidence to back up points while engaging them into different types of activities. This, for one, will increase their knowledge on Language through first hand research allowing them to really understand language change and variation.

- Business and Economics students:

Participate in projects to create a small business, one in a niche market and the next in a mass market. Students should be able to conduct research, calculate costs, profit etc... Considering the economic state and other factors, outlining potential problems and solutions the business may face (through research and actually experiencing real life scenarios). The same can be said for economics students...

At the end of the day, getting students to do their own work and submit projects or pieces of work over the course of 18 months is much better than have then memorise theory and splat them on a paper.

Exams don't prepare students for the real world and don't give them an idea of application of what your learning to the real world.

Oh, also, here's another reason why exams are the worst thing to happen to students and prove nothing:

Luck plays a big role in student success with A-Level and GCSE exams. Think about it, you study the whole syllabus and less than a quarter of it would be required in order to pass the exam. So, if you've only studied that 1/4 or heavily focused on it, you could succeed. Many students come out of exams saying "omg I can't believe it, I'm so glad I focused on *enter chapter here* because that's all that came up... I barely know the rest"
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by 0xygen

I know many students who've done BTECs and got into good universities...


And they are in the minority. Universities recognise that BTECs are far inferior to A-levels and the IB.
Reply 27
Original post by 0xygen
They haven't told you? Why do you think exams are usually 90 minutes long? They give you like 10-15 minutes of extra time to read the questions and think for like 30 seconds a question or a chance to QUICKLY skim over your answers when you've finished... 90 minutes to get 72-80 marks.

Ofcourse this varies from person to person. I know people that wizz through their exam as if they're writing their 2 times tables out.

You seem to have made an error in interpreting my emoticon.

I've done more exams than you could count, A-level and otherwise. I am well aware of what they're like, and let me tell you, they are a piece of piss if you know the material and are at least vaguely intelligent. I did A-level Maths in January last year and it was an absolute joy to do the exams. I went in and it was just lovely, felt like a fun quiz. This, having self-taught the entire A-level syllabus.

AEA German (which I did back in 2006) was a little bit stressful, and the A2 German writing paper was rather unpleasant because the teacher had decided to try a new historical topic and completely failed at teaching it to us so no-one got above a D in that particular paper.

But at no point was any of it as stressful as the pressures of work and real life often are. I fear for when you have to actually become a grown-up.
Reply 28
Original post by Ronove
You seem to have made an error in interpreting my emoticon.

I've done more exams than you could count, A-level and otherwise. I am well aware of what they're like, and let me tell you, they are a piece of piss if you know the material and are at least vaguely intelligent. I did A-level Maths in January last year and it was an absolute joy to do the exams. I went in and it was just lovely, felt like a fun quiz. This, having self-taught the entire A-level syllabus.

AEA German (which I did back in 2006) was a little bit stressful, and the A2 German writing paper was rather unpleasant because the teacher had decided to try a new historical topic and completely failed at teaching it to us so no-one got above a D in that particular paper.

But at no point was any of it as stressful as the pressures of work and real life often are. I fear for when you have to actually become a grown-up.


I don't fear anything. I have more experience that most you probably know... Most students get stressed out during exam season, you're gifted if you find maths piss easy. Also, luck plays a big roll in exams... For example:

I randomly missed two questions from my maths exam without realising. I don't get it, It's like I went blind and didn't see em.
Lol A Levels are way too easy, should be made harder
Reply 30
Original post by 0xygen
I don't fear anything. I have more experience that most you probably know... Most students get stressed out during exam season, you're gifted if you find maths piss easy. Also, luck plays a big roll in exams... For example:

I randomly missed two questions from my maths exam without realising. I don't get it, It's like I went blind and didn't see em.

Missing questions is only something you do if you don't have enough time left over to check properly or if you're so ridiculously anxious and stressed that you genuinely don't see them. I'm not sure which it was for you (possibly both?) but that kind of a stress level has nothing to do with the exam itself. If you didn't have time to check then you're not doing the questions fast enough, if you're just too stressed in the exam setting then you need to work on that somehow. It's not the intended effect and it's definitely not normal. Maybe more timed past papers would help with both?

Given that I've just given away that I am likely at least eight years older than you, I'm not sure how you can make such a comment as 'I have more experience than most you probably know'. Most people my age are fairly likely to have quite a bit more experience than you (I'm not even sure what kind of experience we're talking about here, but it applies regardless) and I have to admit I don't know very many eighteen year olds. You might have more experience than my eighteen-year-old sister. What an achievement.
Original post by alapa
Just wanna chip In on the btec point. They are not much easier! you have to produce approximately 54 pieces of high calibre coursework over a two year period. Most btecs also have exams and practical assesments throughout both years. Only really rubbish colleges let their students upgrade work constantly. You get one shot at it most of the time. There is still a snooty attitude about btecs in some of the older universities. This is changing now though, universities are realising the advantages of taking on btec students and even oxford has changed its policy to allow btec students onto the courses. They even recognised it as an equivalent to a levels for the first time. Check out oxford admissions if you don't believe me!


I genuinely don't know about the difficulty. However, as I understood it (please correct me if wrong) is that the point of BTECs is that they lead in a vocational rather than academic direction? Oxford may have changed its policy so as not to disadvantage naturally academic students from schools that pushed them towards BTECs, but Oxford's courses (even the 'vocational' ones) are almost 100% theoretical, so I think they strongly advise A-levels if you have the choice.

I'm not disagreeing with you - BTECs may be very thorough and difficult - I just want to clarify this so as not to mislead students who are on the point of deciding between the two. And I may be totally wrong.
Reply 32
Original post by 0xygen
6) You'll never be that pressured in life


Actually, you will unless you drop out of education after A-levels.
You will feel more pressure and stress when you go on to university for exams... and then when you go to work, especially in certain areas such as law, business management etc.

Some universities have exams only at the end of the year - what should they scrap exams too? Plus with university once you pass that is it - no chance to improve a grade.
Original post by 0xygen
Before you smart people that love exams and end up getting 100% every exam start arguing, read my side of the argument.

Summarised points:

1) January exams have been removed - There are only June exams now. Giving students ONE shot at getting the grades they deserve is frustrating and stressful, people were given second chances before while they're only given one chance at their exams this time... Failure rates will probably rise by 50%


It's not that stressful. Most schools have mocks early on so everyone knows where they stand - this is more than enough to give slackers a kick up the backside. If I'm honest, the lack of January exams is a good thing. At university you won't be given second chances; you'll have to keep up. People need to be aware of the workload they will face.

Original post by 0xygen

2) Exams prove nothing -The only thing they prove is that you know how to read a book and memorise, they don't prove that you're capable of thinking around problems and don't prove that you're ready for the real world, you also don't gain any experience from them.


Well, sure, exams test your memory of the facts. But that's kind of important. How could you claim to be qualified in a subject you know nothing about? That's ridiculous. IQ tests exist if you want to test intelligence. A levels are there to build and test your knowledge of the subjects you are potentially taking at uni. A levels/uni might not be for everyone, but you don't have to take them. Apprenticeships and BTECs exist for those who would prefer them. A levels could definitely be improved; I think the Pre-Us are great - for example the philosophy papers look amazing, and you get credited for extra knowledge; it's not as mark-scheme dependent as A levels.

Original post by 0xygen

3) Those doing BTEC courses and those doing A-Level courses have the same shot at getting into university - Completely unfair. BTECs are known to be MUCH easier than full A-Levels, yet top class universities accept students with BTECS for most courses/degrees.


Well, this is just wrong.

Original post by 0xygen

4) You forget most of the stuff you've studied - Most students forget and never use most of the stuff they studied at A-Levels... Also, they practically recap everything you've studied at A-Levels in university (not all courses). This shows that exams aren't effective at all.


Well, I don't think I will. I'm studying maths, further maths, computing and physics and want to study physics at uni - and I will certainly use elements of each while I'm there. Also, after a quick glance at the Oxford course, I don't think there's a whole lot of recapping going on. That would be a waste of time. Of course, there might be a week or two spent recapping, but that's because university starts after a huge holiday for the year 13s.

Original post by 0xygen

5) Physical exams and coursework are better alternatives - Physical exams show that you can apply knowledge and experience to gain real results, not numbers on a paper. Coursework proves that you are capable of completing projects by a deadline, which is most likely what you're going to be doing after graduation. You'll be taking part in projects, not sitting there writing exams.


Doesn't really work for maths though, eh? Or for any abstract subjects. I mean, sure, coursework can be good for a research project, but really there is too much other stuff to cover to make time for that kind of thing. Besides, EPQs exist if the student is really keen.

Original post by 0xygen

6) You'll never be that pressured in life - Exam writers usually go by the rule "1 mark per minute", which is completely useless. You'll never be so pressured in your life... When would you ever be so pressured that you'll have less than two hours to complete your work. Example: When would you ever be asked to shout out the answer to "15x7" in 3 seconds? And how is the student that shouts the answer out quickest, a better student? It only proves that he memorised his times tables.


It's not that much pressure, seriously... if you know your stuff, exams are a breeze. Also, that analogy is utterly bizarre. I don't think I've been examined in my times tables since primary school.

Original post by 0xygen

7) We've developed - School exams have been going on for many many years now and they have never proven anything. Thousands of students graduate from top class universities and its always the ones with experience that are hired to work. (Not for Medicine or related courses)... You should obviously have the knowledge, but a student with a 2:2 with heaps of experience will obviously get employed over a student with a 1st and barely any experience. Also, there are hundreds of thousands - millions of graduates who remain unemployed because they don't know how to fully apply their knowledge to real world scenarios.


You keep saying "real world scenarios" but what do you mean by this? A PhD is just as much of a "real world scenario" as working in a construction company. I don't get where you're coming from. People would never be hired if they didn't have the knowledge necessary; that's obvious. Of course people with more experience in their subject area are favoured by employers. That doesn't mean other knowledge is useless...

Original post by 0xygen

8) Education develops, knowledge doesn't - Every year they tweak their education system, changing variables and fixing up numbers. The only thing we need is the CORE knowledge. 20 years down the line, the education I received would be completely useless and I would be relying on experience and core knowledge e.g. The basics of Mathematics and the basics of English to get me through. I would never use 80% of the theories and equations I've memorised.


Education = the provision of knowledge.
Nice oxymoron there.

I see you don't want to be an expert in maths or English. Well, good for you. Don't do the A levels. Some people, though, do want to go on to be teachers or researchers in their subject. For them, that knowledge is essential.
Reply 35
Original post by Ronove
Missing questions is only something you do if you don't have enough time left over to check properly or if you're so ridiculously anxious and stressed that you genuinely don't see them. I'm not sure which it was for you (possibly both?) but that kind of a stress level has nothing to do with the exam itself. If you didn't have time to check then you're not doing the questions fast enough, if you're just too stressed in the exam setting then you need to work on that somehow. It's not the intended effect and it's definitely not normal. Maybe more timed past papers would help with both?

Given that I've just given away that I am likely at least eight years older than you, I'm not sure how you can make such a comment as 'I have more experience than most you probably know'. Most people my age are fairly likely to have quite a bit more experience than you (I'm not even sure what kind of experience we're talking about here, but it applies regardless) and I have to admit I don't know very many eighteen year olds. You might have more experience than my eighteen-year-old sister. What an achievement.


I was stressed out, yep it was my first exam and I wanted to get it all done. I had done every past paper twice before the exam though, averaging 90% on each paper.

Experience is gained in every little thing you do. Age doesn't matter when it comes to knowledge and experience. You may think of me as an 18/19 year old kid that's failing at school and has barely seen the world yet... Well, you couldn't be more wrong.

At 13 we came up with an idea which I managed at 16, it was a project which received an offer of a £15,000 investment. I also employed computer scientists and game dev students, totalling to 6 programmers that were working on it... Turns out that greed got the best of the group and we declined the investment because it was useless. We needed much more than that. I just started focusing on school and lost a crap load of money.

That's just one of the many stories I may have to share.
I could go through a point by point rebuttal, but I'll just give a summary.

Exams are stressful. Unfortunately, so is life - a lot, lot more stressful, in fact. Best get used to it.

A Levels may in their current incarnation be glorified memory tests, but many university exams are not dissimilar. Since A Levels are taken primarily for the purpose of gaining admission to university, they serve their purpose adequately.

You seem to be incapable of understanding that an exam can be intrinsically difficult without being a memory test. I could easily write an exam paper for you where I give you the syllabus and 12 months to prepare for it, and make it open book, and in which you would still not be able to answer a single question.

Theoretical computer science degrees are not just 'basic programming, OS and hardware'. Lol. Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why the good computer science courses require A Level maths (and strongly recommend further maths) but don't require prior experience of programming? Are the professors who set the requirements just crazy? Hint: nope, it's because the courses aren't what you think they are.
Reply 37
Original post by 0xygen
I was stressed out, yep it was my first exam and I wanted to get it all done. I had done every past paper twice before the exam though, averaging 90% on each paper.

Experience is gained in every little thing you do. Age doesn't matter when it comes to knowledge and experience. You may think of me as an 18/19 year old kid that's failing at school and has barely seen the world yet... Well, you couldn't be more wrong.

At 13 we came up with an idea which I managed at 16, it was a project which received an offer of a £15,000 investment. I also employed computer scientists and game dev students, totalling to 6 programmers that were working on it... Turns out that greed got the best of the group and we declined the investment because it was useless. We needed much more than that. I just started focusing on school and lost a crap load of money.

That's just one of the many stories I may have to share.

And yet you don't have the experience and wisdom to realise that other people can also have many unusual experiences. You're at that point where you think you're more experienced/wise/knowledgeable than other people because you don't have the experience/wisdom/knowledge to notice that you're not.
Original post by RayApparently
And they are in the minority. Universities recognise that BTECs are far inferior to A-levels and the IB.


Rightly so
A levels aren't even difficult. Stop being a pu$$y.

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