The Ultimate England Thread II

Pirlo ain't super human, but we saw what happened last time when he wasn't marked out of the game. I don't think England are going to be stupid enough this time to not bother with that threat. His poor games usually coincide with Italy playing badly. Although they have Verratti now who can do Pirlo's job.

I wouldn't say great attacking players either. Englands attack also haven't gelled and I doubt it will have in time for that game. We aren't the greatest on the counter attack, our tactic in the last few games of qualification was pass to Townsend, we aren't the greatest in possession either and we've been relying on a lot of individual brilliance.

Rooney, Sturridge, Ox and Sterling come into that category, potentially Lallana but it's nothing amazing, Italy probably are similar attack wise with Balotelli, Immobile, Cerci and Cassano, bar Balotelli 3 of the 4 have had good seasons.

But they didn't score? :P

In all seriousness though, people need to consider the conditions. I should have explained properly in my previous post why I'm against man-marking him. It will simply be too humid to have one player closing him down all game.

I'm all for having Sterling playing, but to have him closing down Pirlo all game? It would leave him with no energy left to actually do what he does best and would be a waste.

We aren't great on the counter-attack with players like Rooney, but if we had a front 3 of Sturridge, Sterling, and Lallana/Chamberlain then we would be, and I'd argue that would frighten teams. Back it up with Gerrard playing the role he's played for Liverpool this season, and Henderson and Wilshere/Lallana ahead of him (i.e. box-to-box players that can get up and support the counter-attack), and we would have a very effective team.

Basically I'm suggesting the Liverpool midfield & forwards, except Lallana instead of Coutinho and Chamberlain instead of Suarez.

Yeah I've said that England suit a 4-3-3 counter attacking system as well. Originally was up for Carrick but Gerrard has assumed the role in a counter attacking side very well.

I would also include Welbeck somewhere. He's got good pace and work rate and has shown that he's great on the counter(Madrid games) but that depends on the situation.

Agree with your system though. I wouldn't have one player close him down, would get two wide players to narrow or just give him no options to pass to, We don't have a severe lack of pace at the back so we could afford to push up a bit depending on who they play there.

We're going to play 4-4-1-1 though so I don't get why we're having this conversation though

From 60mins onwards Pirlo was clearly MOTM. That's nonsense what you're putting here.Italy do not always play 4-4-2 diamond, they play 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 which are formations that provide more width.Gerrard's passing is inferior to Pirlo's, Gerrard is similar to Alonso passing wise. In terms of long range passing there is nobody better than those two, but Pirlo can dictate a game with short and long passing, Gerrard likes to move the ball as quickly as possible, Pirlo is capable of this but when he needs to shut a game down with slow short passing he can do that as well, he's like a hybrid of Alonso and Xavi, that's not to say he's better than them, but that is his game.But they don't always play down the middle, they play other formations which can provide width. It's not so easy to stop receivers when your midfield duo is Henderson and Gerrard, considering the way Liverpool ship goals game after game, I think it's not really a good idea having to rely on those two stopping receivers.I'd play a 4-3-3 but I'd attempt to close Pirlo down, Either by getting the striker to drop deep, or by getting both wingers to tuck in, this then gives him no space to pass to.There's the final option of pushing up and playing a 4-5-1.

I disagree with that on Italy. Italy could be playing any number of formations. 4-3-2-1, 4-3-1-2, the 3-5-2. The key thing with Italy is the have a solid defence, they are pretty safe. The width is going to come from De Sciglio and Abate. With Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisho centrally, teams are going to struggle to keep the width so there will be loads of space for them to bomb forwards into. There are any number of possible formations for the front players, and that's what is really going to be questioned. I'd think they might go with the Christmas tree, its what they used heavily in the run up, which would be troublesome for us. That formation they out match us man for man in all our key positions. You'd think Chiellini and Barzagli won't be fazed by Sturridge, Pirlo is capable against pretty much anyone we put at 10. We aren't strong wide, with Ox and Welbeck out, really only have Sterling there to provide some pace. I'd think whoever else in central De Rossi and someone will make Lallana or Rooney drifting in pretty difficult, and they are better than Gerrard Hendo or anyone else in the opposite direction. As for them scoring Balotelli on form can deal with out CB's as he's showed at City, and as we've seen in the warm up we're vulnerable to some direct running and Insigne, Cerci and Immobile will provide that. We might get some width from someone like Baines but if Italy play Candreva on the right he'll track him.

I'm saying there are 2 options, either of which should work;1. Mark Pirlo out the game with Sterling or Rooney (or even Henderson, works hard) and then try to get as much possession as possible and run at them with Sterling and Sturridge.

2. Play 2 advanced wingers to keep the full backs out of the game and leave Pirlo to do what he wants.

If we take out the full backs (they won't leave Sterling, Ox or Lallana behind, they will stay back) then we take out all of their width as they have none up top.

This means Pirlos passing will be ineffectual as he can only play centrally and we will have a 3 man midfield to keep a lid on it.

May I just remind everyone that Hodgson has not lost a competitive match as England manager in 120 mins! 1 loss as England manager and that was on penalties.

Italy have more capable passers than just Pirlo. De Rossi, Verratti, Machisho, or even Aqualini can run a game. Pirlo is important, as he's probably the best of them but they will just shift the responsibility to someone else. Its really a must rather than a plan in itself. De Rossi is a better midfielder than anyone in our team, this plan is acting as if he doesn't exist, similar could be said of the others. Final note, I would think every team that has played Juventus has put marking Pirlo out of the game on there to-do list, its not that easy. Two problems. This still doesn't stop them from just dominating us through the centre, we're just going to end up super narrow while they enjoy all the possession (exactly what happened last time) and hope that either of the CM's don't break through, or someone like Balotelli or Immobile don't just score from a long ball. Bearing in mind, Italy are hoping to dominate possession and let Pirlo have loads of the ball. Second problem is the idea of two advanced wingers. Like who? Ox isn't going to make it, Welbeck (doubts). Best option is Sterling in which case he can't play 10 as well. Again not so sure, if they play 3 at the back, they will happily do that. Plus you Motta or Rossi are happy to play defensive roles, and pick up those floating AM's. You do the maths, we they have 2 CB's and Pirlo behind the ball. If they push the full backs forward, they still have both CB's and Pirlo behind the ball. That is assuming Rossi is to far forward to cover which he rarely is. Again big risk, you plan is to leave De Rossi, Marchisio and possibly the best Regista of the modern game against Henderson, Gerrard, and one other for 90mins and hope they don't create anything.Which is the stiffest competition we've faced competitively over 120mins? Sweden perhaps.

I tried doing the cool thing where you separate each point but have no idea how so it is just going to be another block of text.

It doesn't matter who is in the middle passing it around whether it be Pirlo, Marchisio or Verrati. They are free to pass it about all they want. It is not about closing the supply, it is about limiting his options. For your first problem I agree with the concept but not the content. It does allow them to dominate the middle which I am fine with. I say our 3 midfielders (Gerrard, Henderson and Wilshere/Milner assuming 4-3-3 with no Rooney) sit off theirs and allow them to play in front of us. They can have as much meaningless possession as they want, when they try to push forward that is when we close them down.

We will still have enough width as when we have possession our 2 wingers can turn and run at the fullbacks but Italy have no width because the fullbacks cannot get forward and leave the wingers behind. Out wide we have a 2 on 1 every time with a winger and a fullback against presumably Abate and Di Sciglio on each side.

I would be VERY surprised if Italy play anything other than a central 4-4-2 diamond or a central 4-3-2-1 as they don't have any natural wide players. If they do choose to force a central player out wide then they will be ineffective because they are not used to it and they will be given no time by our fullbacks.

I admit Hodgson has not managed many games but during his period we have played Italy and France and were not massively outplayed in either. Also Sweden aren't a bad side and there were some tough away games in the qualifiers. It is not easy to go to Poland or Montenegro for a wet midweek game.

A draw is most likely, I think both teams recognise the other as the team to worry most about, so they'll both take a draw.

Uruguay are the team to worry about most though; they're touted as a team who can actually go far in the competition. A draw is minimum requirement and a win would be achievable if the team selection is positive. Posted from TSR Mobile

Uruguay are the team to worry about most though; they're touted as a team who can actually go far in the competition. A draw is minimum requirement and a win would be achievable if the team selection is positive.

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Call it blind patriotic faith but I can't see England losing to Italy and I really think it will be Uruguay who go out. Suarez (if he even plays) will be far from match fit and the defence is just not good enough to cope with any sustained pressure. I also think Costa Rica will spring a surprise, not enough to qualify but don't think they will lose all 3. They will draw at least 1 and I can see that being against Italy.1. England2. Italy3. Uruguay4. Costa Rica

Nah, they came 5th in qualifying and needed a playoff to get through, their best player isn't fully fit and apart from their front two the team is nothing special.

we need a DM badly though

That shows how little I know about Uruguay aha. Suarez and the fact they're a South American must be the only reasons the media have given the impression that they're a genuine threat then. Either way, they're a step up from our recent friendlies in which England hardly excelled.


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Uruguay are not really a threat, only advantage is that they are better used to the weather.

They got ****ing lucky in 2010, I'm not even being biased here but come on how can you miss a game deciding pen in the 120th min, then lose on pens and with no disrespect, Ghana isn't really the best of teams, well in your eyes they aren't anyway. But if Ghana took Uruguay to the wire, what is there to say that England and Italy won't be able to do so.

Also remember that in the copa america Brazil had been taken out early, although credit to Uruguay for taking out Argentina.

England just have to aim for 2 draws and beat Costa Rica. That's not too hard to do. If we wanted to park the bus we have the players capable of it, we need a DM badly though