The Student Room Group

Acceptance of "Native language" A-levels

Hi,

I am a German native, therefore German mother tongue speaker and I am corious whether my German A-level will be accepted as "normal A-level". It might be a bit unfair as it is very easy to get an A, but I also read once in a newspaper that although Manchester University at first denied a native Welsh speaker the acceptance of Welsh A-level, they had to accept it as part of the offer as he made it public and there was a big rant.
Anyway do you guys know whether universities have different policies on this matter?

Any advise is highly appreciated...

DolLars

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Reply 1
DolLars
Hi,

I am a German native, therefore German mother tongue speaker and I am corious whether my German A-level will be accepted as "normal A-level". It might be a bit unfair as it is very easy to get an A, but I also read once in a newspaper that although Manchester University at first denied a native Welsh speaker the acceptance of Welsh A-level, they had to accept it as part of the offer as he made it public and there was a big rant.
Anyway do you guys know whether universities have different policies on this matter?

Any advise is highly appreciated...

DolLars

I've seen it written in a lot of prospectuses that they won't accept A levels in native langauges. I read an artilce about Bristol not accepting a welsh A Level, and the person concerned was complaining because it was more like english lit than a foreign language. Or something. I'll see if I can look it up. :smile:
Reply 2
Frances
I've seen it written in a lot of prospectuses that they won't accept A levels in native langauges. I read an artilce about Bristol not accepting a welsh A Level, and the person concerned was complaining because it was more like english lit than a foreign language. Or something. I'll see if I can look it up. :smile:

There you go :smile:

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,9830,1127988,00.html
Reply 3
Yeah, i probably actually meant the Welsh speaker at Bristol. ANyway any others who had some kind of experience with this?
Reply 4
It would be totally unjust for a university to accept a modern foreign language A level as one of the acceptable subjects from a native speaker!

The whole idea of MFL is that they are taken as a foreign language just as EFL (English as a Foreign Language) is for students who are not native English speakers.

Native speakers of MFL are allowed to enter GCSE's, AS and A level language courses on the same basis as non native speakers, coasting through to A grades without any need for study etc. They raise the standards and make it harder for non-native speakers to achieve the higher grades.

I feel so strongly about this and it should be disallowed! :mad:
Reply 5
DolLars
Hi,

I am a German native, therefore German mother tongue speaker and I am corious whether my German A-level will be accepted as "normal A-level". It might be a bit unfair as it is very easy to get an A, but I also read once in a newspaper that although Manchester University at first denied a native Welsh speaker the acceptance of Welsh A-level, they had to accept it as part of the offer as he made it public and there was a big rant.
Anyway do you guys know whether universities have different policies on this matter?

Any advise is highly appreciated...

DolLars

i think they do have different policies- i have been accepted by bath to do italian when i dont even have an Alevel in it, just know the language cos i used live there.. did u get an A?where have u applied to? hey yawn, c'est la vie, its like money, are u saying people who are better at languages for whatever reason should not be accepted?or you could just not take the Alevel like me;-)
Reply 6
italianmark
i think they do have different policies- i have been accepted by bath to do italian when i dont even have an Alevel in it, just know the language cos i used live there.. did u get an A?where have u applied to? hey yawn, c'est la vie, its like money, are u saying people who are better at languages for whatever reason should not be accepted?or you could just not take the Alevel like me;-)


I think his main frustration is that people take alevels in their native languages, and this pushes up the grade boundaries for all the non native speakers. Making MFLs artificially difficult to get good grades in.

I know for maths, they adjust the grades because they know further maths people will be taking the same modules and scoring high marks on them. Maybe they do the same for languages?
Reply 7
fishpaste
I think his main frustration is that people take alevels in their native languages, and this pushes up the grade boundaries for all the non native speakers. Making MFLs artificially difficult to get good grades in.

I know for maths, they adjust the grades because they know further maths people will be taking the same modules and scoring high marks on them. Maybe they do the same for languages?


Thanks fishpaste - that is the main reason for my rant!

It would be easy for someone who is e.g. a native French speaker to get a top grade in French in any external exam. We would not expect them to do the same exam in English language as we do, so they should not be able to do the same French exam as we do because it is not designed for native speakers and is therefore much less challenging for them. In fact it's a 'walk in the park'.

I spoke to our MFL head of dept. about this and he confirmed that our foreign students sit identical papers in say French, German, Italian etc as we do and they sail through them, obviously. They might find it more difficult to sail through the language exam in their own country in the relevant language!
Reply 8
yawn1
It would be totally unjust for a university to accept a modern foreign language A level as one of the acceptable subjects from a native speaker!

The whole idea of MFL is that they are taken as a foreign language just as EFL (English as a Foreign Language) is for students who are not native English speakers.


This is to some extent true, but you also have to consider that for non-native English speakers it is a lot harder to perform in more social science related subjects due to the amount and quality of writing and understanding required (even when you get 25% extra time). I think it is just "fair" that foreign language speakers get some advantage in a different area, in this case that you get an easy A in your native language A-level.
Reply 9
yawn1
Thanks fishpaste - that is the main reason for my rant!

It would be easy for someone who is e.g. a native French speaker to get a top grade in French in any external exam. We would not expect them to do the same exam in English language as we do, so they should not be able to do the same French exam as we do because it is not designed for native speakers and is therefore much less challenging for them. In fact it's a 'walk in the park'.

I spoke to our MFL head of dept. about this and he confirmed that our foreign students sit identical papers in say French, German, Italian etc as we do and they sail through them, obviously. They might find it more difficult to sail through the language exam in their own country in the relevant language!

so what kind of exam should they do? should there be different ones for people who are native speakers or who have lived there or who receives extra tuition? and people who are related to stephen hawking should take easier exams? maybe if there wasnt a shortage of linguists this would be looked at but of course it is easier for them than to do the language here, but this isnt the problem- many english people dont feel the need to learn foreign languages and probably wont need them. only a small minority of a level candidates are native speakers, wouldnt worry about grade boundaries based on that.
what course have you applied for and where?
Reply 10
DolLars
This is to some extent true, but you also have to consider that for non-native English speakers it is a lot harder to perform in more social science related subjects due to the amount and quality of writing and understanding required (even when you get 25% extra time). I think it is just "fair" that foreign language speakers get some advantage in a different area, in this case that you get an easy A in your native language A-level.

Don't be silly! Those kind of biases need to be corrected within the individual subject. You can't just start 'borrowing' advantage, taking it from one subject and giving it to another.
Reply 11
italianmark
so what kind of exam should they do? should there be different ones for people who are native speakers or who have lived there or who receives extra tuition? and people who are related to stephen hawking should take easier exams? maybe if there wasnt a shortage of linguists this would be looked at but of course it is easier for them than to do the language here, but this isnt the problem- many english people dont feel the need to learn foreign languages and probably wont need them. only a small minority of a level candidates are native speakers, wouldnt worry about grade boundaries based on that.
what course have you applied for and where?


Woah woah, you managed to deviate an awful lot from the issue at hand. Stephen Hawking?! Shortage of english people speaking MFLs?!

Either there should be a separate exam, yes, or they should acknowledge that the mean will be artificially high when they mark the Alevel papers, and reduce it slightly.
Reply 12
italianmark
did u get an A?where have u applied to?


Yeah I did get an A, although I have to admit that the German A_-level exam isn't that easy actually. Anyway I haven't applied for a university yet, I am studying in Switzerland at the moment -after already having studied one year at Brunel University- and now want to transfer into 2nd year as I don't like it in Switzerland anymore. As I am quite late trying to sort this out I am trying to get into any decent universities that offer an Accounting degree in combination with Economics, therefore an A in German would help me to get into a more decent univercity (apart from GErman I got BBC)
By the way Brunel is a crappy place, last year even one person got murdered on the campus!
fishpaste
Woah woah, you managed to deviate an awful lot from the issue at hand. Stephen Hawking?! Shortage of english people speaking MFLs?!

Either there should be a separate exam, yes, or they should acknowledge that the mean will be artificially high when they mark the Alevel papers, and reduce it slightly.

lol yes but so are you, c'est pas? so should foreign students do an easier exam in all other subjects?! yes, dont u think there is a shortage compared to other european countries?mirrored in slight ignorance about europe in general? this 'colonisation' of exams wont help us,luckily most of us dont really need them anyway;-)
Reply 14
italianmark
lol yes but so are you, c'est pas? so should foreign students do an easier exam in all other subjects?! yes, dont u think there is a shortage compared to other european countries?mirrored in slight ignorance about europe in general? this 'colonisation' of exams wont help us,luckily most of us dont really need them anyway;-)


I have? I don't think you quite get me.

Should foreign students do an easier exam in all other subjects? Well let's start with the aim of an alevel exam, to measure your aptitude in that subject. Whether an alevel maths exam fails to accurately measure the aptitude of foreign students to do maths is another issue. So no, they should not sit easier exams in other subjects.

Yes I think British public are generally quite ignorant to european language and culture, but I don't see how that effects the effectiveness of the alevel system.

I have no clue what you mean by 'the colonisation' of exams.
fishpaste
I have? I don't think you quite get me.

Should foreign students do an easier exam in all other subjects? Well let's start with the aim of an alevel exam, to measure your aptitude in that subject. Whether an alevel maths exam fails to accurately measure the aptitude of foreign students to do maths is another issue. So no, they should not sit easier exams in other subjects.

Yes I think British public are generally quite ignorant to european language and culture, but I don't see how that effects the effectiveness of the alevel system.

I have no clue what you mean by 'the colonisation' of exams.

i mean changing the system in order to help english people do better than native speakers, maybe i chose a bad word! why is it another issue, the issue is how much of an advantage it is to be a native speaker/relative of stephen hawking etc and whether this should be taken into account when interpreting exam results.. whether it is good or not, these are not really taken into account in any subject so why just for langauges... its like the advantage of having money... and no ones going to change the system now if it means producing less linguists when we need more
your not doing languages are u fishpaste?
Reply 16
italianmark
i mean changing the system in order to help english people do better than native speakers, maybe i chose a bad word! why is it another issue, the issue is how much of an advantage it is to be a native speaker/relative of stephen hawking etc and whether this should be taken into account when interpreting exam results.. whether it is good or not, these are not really taken into account in any subject so why just for langauges... its like the advantage of having money... and no ones going to change the system now if it means producing less linguists when we need more
your not doing languages are u fishpaste?


It's not changing the system to help english speakers do better than native speakers. It's changing it so that native speakers do not make it artificially difficult for english students to pass. Do you understand what I mean by that? That native students make it harder for english students than it should be? I think the most straight forward solution is when a native speaker takes the alevel, that's fine, let's not change their marks or anything, but let's just not include their result when working out the mean/variance to fit onto the normal distribution curve. THat way the grade boundaries will not be artificially high, and the alevel can still function as a "certificate of ability" for native speakers wanting a qualification.

If that's a little too statistical for you, imagine this, there's a class full of 15 year olds learning english in italy. One day, 15 people come from england and sit in this class. All 30 students take the exam, clearly the 15 native english speakers are going to come top 15. Is it therefore fair to say that the 15 italian speakers have "below average english?" I think you'll agree it's not. They probably have very good english for their age, but the bar was raised too high.

I'm not doing languages no, I was going to do Alevel french, but I started and it seemed far too difficult, so I gave up :P
fishpaste
It's not changing the system to help english speakers do better than native speakers. It's changing it so that native speakers do not make it artificially difficult for english students to pass. Do you understand what I mean by that? That native students make it harder for english students than it should be? I think the most straight forward solution is when a native speaker takes the alevel, that's fine, let's not change their marks or anything, but let's just not include their result when working out the mean/variance to fit onto the normal distribution curve. THat way the grade boundaries will not be artificially high, and the alevel can still function as a "certificate of ability" for native speakers wanting a qualification.

If that's a little too statistical for you, imagine this, there's a class full of 15 year olds learning english in italy. One day, 15 people come from england and sit in this class. All 30 students take the exam, clearly the 15 native english speakers are going to come top 15. Is it therefore fair to say that the 15 italian speakers have "below average english?" I think you'll agree it's not. They probably have very good english for their age, but the bar was raised too high.

I'm not doing languages no, I was going to do Alevel french, but I started and it seemed far too difficult, so I gave up :P

heh no that wasnt too statisical for me, but the scenario you give doesnt apply as the proportion of native speakers is not 50%! however, i do think it would be a fair idea to not include native speaker results when working out the distribution of results curve- thought this could set a huge precedent for other subjects. suprised u gave it up, u seeem quite passionate about this eh? hope this isnt an excuse for english people not being as proficent at languages than other countries;-) pretty interesting though:

http://convention.allacademic.com/aera2004/AERA_papers/AERA_3102_12467a.PDF

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2003/section1/indicator04.asp
Reply 18
Well, in Cyprus where I live, people tend to take modern greek up to a-level....however, most universities dont think of it as a major plus...
British council advised me to do another subject....
Reply 19
italianmark
heh no that wasnt too statisical for me, but the scenario you give doesnt apply as the proportion of native speakers is not 50%! however, i do think it would be a fair idea to not include native speaker results when working out the distribution of results curve- thought this could set a huge precedent for other subjects. suprised u gave it up, u seeem quite passionate about this eh? hope this isnt an excuse for english people not being as proficent at languages than other countries;-) pretty interesting though:

http://convention.allacademic.com/aera2004/AERA_papers/AERA_3102_12467a.PDF

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2003/section1/indicator04.asp


the 50% is arbitary, it could be 99% it could be 1% the argument still holds.

I wish I had taken it on, because I did enjoy studying french very much. But I did not want a low grade denting my academic record. And as it happens, I took up double maths instead, and now I'm going to study maths at warwick or cambridge, so it did pay off :smile:

It's true the english are not proficient at MFLs, but the truth is our culture and economy is linked much more with that of the US. Brits do not regard themselves as part of the european community as say Spain or Italy does.

I shall have a look at those links now.