"You only live once" - But what's to stop us living again?
You know from the fact that you are on TSR reading this post that you have come to be 'alive' at least once, and we can therefore conclude that the emergence of your consciousness into being is not impossible. If it isn't impossible, then we can further conclude that given enough space and/or time it could happen again. If your consciousness is purely a product of the arrangement of atoms and molecules that make up your brain, there is no fundamental physical principle which would prevent this arrangment reforming at some distant point after death. Given that you would perceive no time during periods in between, from your point of view, you would be instantaneously reborn after your death.
You might think that this is just a hypothetical scenario with no basis in reality, but given that physicists think the universe is most probably spatially infinite, you'd be wrong. Here's a quote from the NASA website detailing the current scientific standing on the shape and extent of the universe:
"We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe"
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Now, given an infinite space, the vanishingly improbable becomes inevitable; anything that can happen will happen, not once, but an infinite number of times. If indeed the universe is spatially infinite then, considering that there are a finite number of ways matter can be arranged, the pattern of matter that forms your consciousness would exist not just once, but would emerge in different regions of space an infinite number of times. Physicist Max Tegmark estimates that "the distance to your closest doppelgänger is 10 x 10^28 metres from you"
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/PD...erse_sciam.pdf
I must stress that these doppelgängers would not be mere clones of you, they would be totally indistinguishable from you in every measurable way. As well as having your precise DNA, they would have the same memories, personality, thoughts and feelings. Unless there's some, as yet undiscovered, non-physical (metaphysical) difference between every doppelganger, each one would have an equally valid claim to being 'you'.
I therefore posit that with absolutely no need for a metaphysical soul, or any kind of spiritual realm, yours and my 'reincarnation' is an inevitable result of the nature and extent of reality and the laws of probability. Discuss.
You might think that this is just a hypothetical scenario with no basis in reality, but given that physicists think the universe is most probably spatially infinite, you'd be wrong. Here's a quote from the NASA website detailing the current scientific standing on the shape and extent of the universe:
"We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe"
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Now, given an infinite space, the vanishingly improbable becomes inevitable; anything that can happen will happen, not once, but an infinite number of times. If indeed the universe is spatially infinite then, considering that there are a finite number of ways matter can be arranged, the pattern of matter that forms your consciousness would exist not just once, but would emerge in different regions of space an infinite number of times. Physicist Max Tegmark estimates that "the distance to your closest doppelgänger is 10 x 10^28 metres from you"
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/PD...erse_sciam.pdf
I must stress that these doppelgängers would not be mere clones of you, they would be totally indistinguishable from you in every measurable way. As well as having your precise DNA, they would have the same memories, personality, thoughts and feelings. Unless there's some, as yet undiscovered, non-physical (metaphysical) difference between every doppelganger, each one would have an equally valid claim to being 'you'.
I therefore posit that with absolutely no need for a metaphysical soul, or any kind of spiritual realm, yours and my 'reincarnation' is an inevitable result of the nature and extent of reality and the laws of probability. Discuss.
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Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
You know from the fact that you are on TSR reading this post that you have come to be 'alive' at least once, and we can therefore conclude that the emergence of your consciousness into being is not impossible. If it isn't impossible, then we can further conclude that given enough space and/or time it could happen again. If your consciousness is purely a product of the arrangement of atoms and molecules that make up your brain, there is no fundamental physical principle which would prevent this arrangment reforming at some distant point after death. Given that you would perceive no time during periods in between, from your point of view, you would be instantaneously reborn after your death.
When death occurs it seems only logical that our thoughts, ideas and consciousness also are lost. The brain begins to decompose; there doesn't seem to be any basis to suggest that whatever our personality arises from could remain intact.
Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
You might think that this is just a hypothetical scenario with no basis in reality, but given that physicists think the universe is most probably spatially infinite, you'd be wrong. Here's a quote from the NASA website detailing the current scientific standing on the shape and extent of the universe:
"We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe"
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Now, given an infinite space, the vanishingly improbable becomes inevitable; anything that can happen will happen, not once, but an infinite number of times. If indeed the universe is spatially infinite then, considering that there are a finite number of ways matter can be arranged, the pattern of matter that forms your consciousness would exist not just once, but would emerge in different regions of space an infinite number of times. Physicist Max Tegmark estimates that "the distance to your closest doppelgänger is 10 x 10^28 metres from you"
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/PD...erse_sciam.pdf
I must stress that these doppelgängers would not be mere clones of you, they would be totally indistinguishable from you in every measurable way. As well as having your precise DNA, they would have the same memories, personality, thoughts and feelings. Unless there's some, as yet undiscovered, non-physical (metaphysical) difference between every doppelganger, each one would have an equally valid claim to being 'you'.
I therefore posit that with absolutely no need for a metaphysical soul, or any kind of spiritual realm, yours and my 'reincarnation' is an inevitable result of the nature and extent of reality and the laws of probability. Discuss.
You might think that this is just a hypothetical scenario with no basis in reality, but given that physicists think the universe is most probably spatially infinite, you'd be wrong. Here's a quote from the NASA website detailing the current scientific standing on the shape and extent of the universe:
"We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe"
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Now, given an infinite space, the vanishingly improbable becomes inevitable; anything that can happen will happen, not once, but an infinite number of times. If indeed the universe is spatially infinite then, considering that there are a finite number of ways matter can be arranged, the pattern of matter that forms your consciousness would exist not just once, but would emerge in different regions of space an infinite number of times. Physicist Max Tegmark estimates that "the distance to your closest doppelgänger is 10 x 10^28 metres from you"
http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/PD...erse_sciam.pdf
I must stress that these doppelgängers would not be mere clones of you, they would be totally indistinguishable from you in every measurable way. As well as having your precise DNA, they would have the same memories, personality, thoughts and feelings. Unless there's some, as yet undiscovered, non-physical (metaphysical) difference between every doppelganger, each one would have an equally valid claim to being 'you'.
I therefore posit that with absolutely no need for a metaphysical soul, or any kind of spiritual realm, yours and my 'reincarnation' is an inevitable result of the nature and extent of reality and the laws of probability. Discuss.
Is there a finite number of ways matter can be arranged?
Even accepting everything you've suggested, the only certainty we've found is that, over a infinite stable time frame there must be another human that is constructed in exactly the same way as we are. For them to develop and become exactly what we are at this moment in our lives would require them to experience exactly the same life, which is impossible. So, if assumed to be sound, all your argument can lead to is a person born exactly the same as us.
However, I don't think it's a sound argument. Firstly, how could this doppelgänger arise? Would it be given birth to like us? If so, then for it to be exactly the same as us would require it's parents to be exactly the same as our parents, and their parents to be exactly the same as theirs. 'The same' must also include life experiences as well as biology. Thus it seems only logical to say that there are an infinite number of possible humans as there are an infinite number of possible life experiences over large number of generations.
Secondly, perhaps more simply, for there to be an infinite number of humans there must be not just life, but an infinite number of human lives, elsewhere in the universe.
I'll admit that this was a very muddled post.
How about this:
I only want to live this life.
I only want to live this life.
Are you trying to discuss reincarnation? I think it's waste of time.
No one on earth can experience or fully understand "sweetness" by using logic or science.
Posted from TSR Mobile
No one on earth can experience or fully understand "sweetness" by using logic or science.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Came expecting to put down an argument in its crib.
Ended up reading a brilliant post. Thank you.
The obvious retort is that infinity is a construction of that consciousness you describe, which in reality is an assumption. But I do really like the idea you posted, it's definitely a beautiful mixture of incisive logic and almost whimsical lust. And makes perfect sense.
Ended up reading a brilliant post. Thank you.
The obvious retort is that infinity is a construction of that consciousness you describe, which in reality is an assumption. But I do really like the idea you posted, it's definitely a beautiful mixture of incisive logic and almost whimsical lust. And makes perfect sense.
(edited 9 years ago)
What an interesting idea. But each individual only physically lives one life right? After living one life (life 1), you die and this individual (individual 1) is dead. A 'doppelgänger' could be formed, through the infinite probabilities of the universe, with the memories of the past life ('instantaneous rebirth') with the same consciousness and live another life (life 2). However individual 1 would still be dead and never know about life 2. Right? For instance take a computer 1. All the data on computer 1 is copied onto computer 2 which is identical and runs in the same way. You input more data (i.e. the 2nd life) in computer 2 but computer 1 would not know of this extra data, this second life. SO for individual 1, in their perspective they have and will only live one life
Original post by ridl
What an interesting idea. But each individual only physically lives one life right? After living one life (life 1), you die and this individual (individual 1) is dead. A 'doppelgänger' could be formed, through the infinite probabilities of the universe, with the memories of the past life ('instantaneous rebirth') with the same consciousness and live another life (life 2). However individual 1 would still be dead and never know about life 2. Right? For instance take a computer 1. All the data on computer 1 is copied onto computer 2 which is identical and runs in the same way. You input more data (i.e. the 2nd life) in computer 2 but computer 1 would not know of this extra data, this second life. SO for individual 1, in their perspective they have and will only live one life
You can label them individual 1 and individual 2 if you like, but barring some metaphysical aspect that we are currently aware of, the distinction between them would seem to me to be wholly imagined. To talk about each doppelganger as if they are disparate entities (as in your computer example) requires that they be distinguishable from each other in some sense, but from the materialist perspective, they wouldn't be. If each consciousness is defined as a self aware information structure encoded in physical matter, and nothing more, then each doppelganger can be considered to be a physical manifestation of the same individual.
"If your consciousness is purely a product of the arrangement of atoms and molecules that make up your brain, there is no fundamental physical principle which would prevent this arrangement reforming at some distant point after death. "
You must have a very deliberately shallow, rootless relationship to the world to think that. The type of consciousness each of us has is a complicated cauldron of past successes , grievances, ignorances, passions, indifferences, suppressions, unfairnesses, cynicisms, idealisms.
Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, everyone is born in to a different certain time and place with different types of access to education, whether government authorised, self/family education. The motives, the manners, the ways, the idenitifications that people have are different.
Any doppelganger would only be so until such time that it realised whatever circumstances it was in. I assert that every event in the universe is irretrievably unique and even the possibility of infinite universes would not change it, let alone the same universe .
It could or even would simply take an infinite amount of time to create the exact same circumstances. And that infinite time might never be reached because, of course, it would take infinite time to do it which never comes.
You must have a very deliberately shallow, rootless relationship to the world to think that. The type of consciousness each of us has is a complicated cauldron of past successes , grievances, ignorances, passions, indifferences, suppressions, unfairnesses, cynicisms, idealisms.
Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, everyone is born in to a different certain time and place with different types of access to education, whether government authorised, self/family education. The motives, the manners, the ways, the idenitifications that people have are different.
Any doppelganger would only be so until such time that it realised whatever circumstances it was in. I assert that every event in the universe is irretrievably unique and even the possibility of infinite universes would not change it, let alone the same universe .
It could or even would simply take an infinite amount of time to create the exact same circumstances. And that infinite time might never be reached because, of course, it would take infinite time to do it which never comes.
Original post by Nogoodsorgods
You must have a very deliberately shallow, rootless relationship to the world to think that. The type of consciousness each of us has is a complicated cauldron of past successes , grievances, ignorances, passions, indifferences, suppressions, unfairnesses, cynicisms, idealisms.
Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, everyone is born in to a different certain time and place with different types of access to education, whether government authorised, self/family education. The motives, the manners, the ways, the idenitifications that people have are different.
I'm well aware that consciousness is complicated, but from a materialist perspective, everything you've listed here is, fundamentally, the result of a specific arrangement of physical matter. If the universe is spatially infinite (which it is to a 99.6% degree of certainty), then the particular arrangement of matter/pattern of information that makes you who you are will inevitably be repeated. Morevover, we've known since the 1920s that time is relative -- two individuals travelling at different speeds or separated by large distances could not, even in principle, agree on a consistent definition of 'now'. So to claim that who we are is defined on the basis of our position in time is flawed because it is built upon the debunked notion of absolute linear time.
Each doppelganger would be in precisely the same set of circumstances, that's an integral part of the definition of a doppelganger. And I see no basis on which you make your assertion about the universe's uniqueness. You have offered no argument pertaining to why patterns of information encoded in physical matter could not repeat given an infinite space in which to do so. Finally, an infinite amount of time is not required in order to create the exact same circumstances in a spatially infinite universe.
Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, everyone is born in to a different certain time and place with different types of access to education, whether government authorised, self/family education. The motives, the manners, the ways, the idenitifications that people have are different.
I'm well aware that consciousness is complicated, but from a materialist perspective, everything you've listed here is, fundamentally, the result of a specific arrangement of physical matter. If the universe is spatially infinite (which it is to a 99.6% degree of certainty), then the particular arrangement of matter/pattern of information that makes you who you are will inevitably be repeated. Morevover, we've known since the 1920s that time is relative -- two individuals travelling at different speeds or separated by large distances could not, even in principle, agree on a consistent definition of 'now'. So to claim that who we are is defined on the basis of our position in time is flawed because it is built upon the debunked notion of absolute linear time.
Original post by Nogoodsorgods
Any doppelganger would only be so until such time that it realised whatever circumstances it was in. I assert that every event in the universe is irretrievably unique and even the possibility of infinite universes would not change it, let alone the same universe .
It could or even would simply take an infinite amount of time to create the exact same circumstances. And that infinite time might never be reached because, of course, it would take infinite time to do it which never comes.
Any doppelganger would only be so until such time that it realised whatever circumstances it was in. I assert that every event in the universe is irretrievably unique and even the possibility of infinite universes would not change it, let alone the same universe .
It could or even would simply take an infinite amount of time to create the exact same circumstances. And that infinite time might never be reached because, of course, it would take infinite time to do it which never comes.
Each doppelganger would be in precisely the same set of circumstances, that's an integral part of the definition of a doppelganger. And I see no basis on which you make your assertion about the universe's uniqueness. You have offered no argument pertaining to why patterns of information encoded in physical matter could not repeat given an infinite space in which to do so. Finally, an infinite amount of time is not required in order to create the exact same circumstances in a spatially infinite universe.
Maybe it's the continuity of the pattern which causes consciousness, rather than just the arrangement of atoms...
Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
'
I have no opinion about this whatsoever, but I just wanted to post how much I love your username.
Original post by yo radical one
Maybe it's the continuity of the pattern which causes consciousness, rather than just the arrangement of atoms...
On that basis, would somebody who dies briefly but who is then resuscitated not wake up a different individual? After all, continuity would have been broken.
Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
On that basis, would somebody who dies briefly but who is then resuscitated not wake up a different individual? After all, continuity would have been broken.
People who are, "clinically dead" aren't really dead though
Original post by carnationlilyrose
I have no opinion about this whatsoever, but I just wanted to post how much I love your username.
Haha... well thanks for letting me know.
Original post by yo radical one
People who are, "clinically dead" aren't really dead though
Well that depends on your definition of 'dead'. But, in any case, it's certainly a break in continuity of consciousness.
Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
Well that depends on your definition of 'dead'. But, in any case, it's certainly a break in continuity of consciousness.
I didn't really word it correctly, I meant the continuation of electrical activity, I mean you lose consciousness when you sleep.
Original post by yo radical one
I didn't really word it correctly, I meant the continuation of electrical activity, I mean you lose consciousness when you sleep.
Ok, so how about if, in the future, technology allowed people to be put into a state of suspended animation via cryonics? I realise that it's currently a specualtive field, but it's certainly theoretically possible. This would suspend all electrical activity in the brain whilst preserving brain structures that encode memory and personality etc, allowing the person to be reanimated in the future. Would this person wake up a different individual?
Original post by Ziggy Sawdust
Ok, so how about if, in the future, technology allowed people to be put into a state of suspended animation via cryonics? I realise that it's currently a specualtive field, but it's certainly theoretically possible. This would suspend all electrical activity in the brain whilst preserving brain structures that encode memory and personality etc, allowing the person to be reanimated in the future. Would this person wake up a different individual?
I do believe this will be possible oneday and I do believe they would be the same person
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