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BIochem BSc + MSc = no job... for 2 yrs.... am I alone?

Well... I kind of get the idea that my situation is very rare, but I can't help but to wonder if there are other people in a similar situation. And, more importantly, maybe I can get an idea of how to get out of this nightmare..


So, I got my BSc in biochem (2:1) and then went for an MSc in biomed (merit), specializing in immunology (working with cells, basically). I thought of doing a PhD, but I didn't impress my MSc project supervisor => no reference letter => can't apply for PhD positions.

This was 2 years ago. I have not been able to get a lab-based job of any kind, anywhere. I am mostly applying for low-pay jobs that dont require much or any work experience (as I have none from a lab). I sent around 500+ job applications in the last 2 years (UK and EU).

From job application feedbacks, I generally get this:

- low-pay jobs (e.g. lab tech) that don't require previous work experience and only ask for lower education (A levels, sometimes BSc): I get rejected because I'm over-qualified. I guess the employer fear that I will leave for a better job etc.

- mid- to high-pay jobs: require a BSc + 1 year lab-based work experience: I get rejected because I never worked in a lab before.


How does anyone manage to survive after graduation is beyond me.... Anyone else in a similar situation? How did you get out of it? Did you change career goals? Study for another degree? Is there a way to convince an employer to hire an over-qualified person like me?


Any advice/thoughts much appreciated, thank you :P
(edited 9 years ago)

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Reply 1
Try remove your MSc and apply for the entry-level jobs then? Gotta tailor yourself to the position. Have you tried contacting your university's career service (I know quite a few continue support for a few years for alumni) or if not something like the national careers service. Use an agency maybe to get you a temporary QA/QC position. Despite the temporary advertisement they do actually look for longer term prospects, but even if it does end up only being a temp it will be very useful for you here.

It's just one of those unfortunate situations. There's lots of graduates out there without jobs, and if you're one of them that hasn't done a work placement, internship during your degree or had a break anywhere then it's very easy to get stuck in a rut . It's easier to try and prevent than cure!

Use any contacts (sites such as LinkedIn as very useful too) like anyone you went to university with, or if you family knows someone who works in HR for X and so on. Some of them must be working somewhere, and they should be able to point you towards things. Particularly if they're smaller companies you're more likely to get through to a person, rather than going through filters and getting rejected because you don't tick a box. Plus, even anything like small internships at university research labs or companies would help. They might not be able to pay you (much) but you just need somewhere to start.

Studying further seems like a waste, because that's not your problem (assuming you enjoy immunology). It's the experience holding you back.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 2
Perhaps you could fill up your CV with a low-wage job unrelated to lab work, or do volunteering or something.

A degree might show that you're studious, but perhaps employers are concerned, based on your CV, with how you'll handle day in day out drudgery, if you haven't demonstrated that you've been through it before.

Also, do you have a driving license? Some employers like you to have one, and I don't see it hurting.
Reply 3
Original post by Nymthae
Try remove your MSc and apply for the entry-level jobs then? Gotta tailor yourself to the position. Have you tried contacting your university's career service (I know quite a few continue support for a few years for alumni) or if not something like the national careers service. Use an agency maybe to get you a temporary QA/QC position. Despite the temporary advertisement they do actually look for longer term prospects, but even if it does end up only being a temp it will be very useful for you here.


Thanks, I haven't actually tried not to mention my MSc when applying for entry-level lab jobs. I do remove it when applying for non-lab jobs though (e.g retail). I'm going to try this out on my next application. It does feel a bit strange to lie to a potential employer, but hey...

Original post by Nymthae
It's just one of those unfortunate situations. There's lots of graduates out there without jobs, and if you're one of them that hasn't done a work placement, internship during your degree or had a break anywhere then it's very easy to get stuck in a rut . It's easier to try and prevent than cure!


Spot on! I never worked in-between my studies (except that one time when I was working as a "portrait poser" lol). This is the one important thing that I missed.

Original post by Nymthae
Use any contacts (sites such as LinkedIn as very useful too) like anyone you went to university with, or if you family knows someone who works in HR for X and so on. Some of them must be working somewhere, and they should be able to point you towards things. Particularly if they're smaller companies you're more likely to get through to a person, rather than going through filters and getting rejected because you don't tick a box. Plus, even anything like small internships at university research labs or companies would help. They might not be able to pay you (much) but you just need somewhere to start.


Thanks. During a CV and interview techniques workshop, I was told that up to half of the jobs are not advertised publicly. Instead, the jobs are offered within a closed circuit of friends/relatives/etc. I've applied for a couple non-paid internship, but to no avail as of yet. I think I need to focus on this a bit more as well.

Original post by Nymthae
Studying further seems like a waste, because that's not your problem (assuming you enjoy immunology). It's the experience holding you back.


I agree with you 100%, but with no steady job or income and no career prospects, studying for a 3rd (!) degree might actually be an option for me... I have already applied for another BSc in engineering just in case. But I'm not sure if I will go through with this.

Original post by nohomo
Perhaps you could fill up your CV with a low-wage job unrelated to lab work, or do volunteering or something.


I've been trying, but I often get rejected since I'm overqualified. I speak 4 languages and I have been working as a translator here and there. But I get the impression that lab-based work experience is key and without it I won't get inside a lab. I already got tons of volunteering experience in several countries though, any more volunteering and I might appear "frivolous" (lol). However, I have been considering teaching English in Asia. I won't get paid, but it's something consistent to do and I would enjoy it :P

Original post by nohomo
A degree might show that you're studious, but perhaps employers are concerned, based on your CV, with how you'll handle day in day out drudgery, if you haven't demonstrated that you've been through it before.


That's a very good point! I have been reading several articles on the subject and I gathered that a majority of employers don't hire new graduates due to lack of "soft skills", i.e. lack of professional/social/business skills like communication and face2face with customers etc.

However, I'm somewhat ok on this point, as I have quite a bit of volunteering experience and I have been moving around from country to country all by myself since I was 19. I think my languages skills and translation work experience counts for something as well, especially with roles requiring communication with customers.

Original post by nohomo
Also, do you have a driving license? Some employers like you to have one, and I don't see it hurting.


Funny you should mention this... I have recently got a call from a lab tech job that is based in the middle of nowhere. It was even stated in the job advert that applicants need a car to drive to the job site. Now... I don't have a car or even a driving license (can't afford it), but I might present it in a brighter light. I would seriously ride the buss/bike/walk for 2 hrs one way as long as I get the job :P
Reply 4
Thank you for the replies everyone!

I'm trying to approach this problem from every angle and it does help have a second opinion.

Last night I kept thinking about this below:


Original post by INeedMonies

- low-pay jobs (e.g. lab tech) that don't require previous work experience and only ask for lower education (A levels, sometimes BSc): I get rejected because I'm over-qualified. I guess the employer fear that I will leave for a better job etc.

- mid- to high-pay jobs: require a BSc + 1 year lab-based work experience: I get rejected because I never worked in a lab before.


... why are there no jobs "in-between" those two above? I mean, there should be some middle ground between no experience needed and 1 yr of experience needed. This seems strange to me and got me thinking that I might not be covering the entire scope of available lab jobs. I do apply for QA/QC/Research assistant jobs, but maybe not hard enough!
Reply 5
Where abouts in the UK do you live? I live in London & I've been considering Pharmaceutical Chem, and I just assumed that there'd be lots of lab-based work up North, since that's where the industry seems to be.
The career prospects for science-related degrees seem to be very poor, unless you do Medicine, Dentistry or Pharmacy. It makes me not want to pursue any kind of chemistry-related degree anymore :frown:
Reply 6
Original post by Petulia
Where abouts in the UK do you live? I live in London & I've been considering Pharmaceutical Chem, and I just assumed that there'd be lots of lab-based work up North, since that's where the industry seems to be.
The career prospects for science-related degrees seem to be very poor, unless you do Medicine, Dentistry or Pharmacy. It makes me not want to pursue any kind of chemistry-related degree anymore :frown:


I'm just outside of London. And you're right about a lot of the industry being up north. Though, there's quite a bit of it around London as well. Surrey is an area I often see in job ads.

Having said that I came to a stage where I don't care where the job is located. I will most certainly move anywhere in the UK to get some lab experience, even if it's only for a temp job.

Original post by Petulia
It makes me not want to pursue any kind of chemistry-related degree anymore


I like to believe that my case is an exception, rather than a general rule. Otherwise, it really is hard to think of where I will be in the future...

I hope I didn't discourage anyone from studying biochem or related subjects. Instead, it should motivate people to do more than studying and get out this "Uni mentality" from the very start. Grades < job experience.

I used to think that getting a job while studying would lower my grades, and so I didn't. But what I should've been thinking is: all these classes are in the way of getting work experience.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 7
Original post by INeedMonies
I'm just outside of London. And you're right about a lot of the industry being up north. Though, there's quite a bit of it around London as well. Surrey is an area I often see in job ads.

Having said that I came to a stage where I don't care where the job is located. I will most certainly move anywhere in the UK to get some lab experience, even if it's only for a temp job.


Did you do a sandwich degree? I thought that most people would be able to go back to the place they worked at during their placement year after graduating. Anyway if you get really desperate, you could always do a PGCE and be a Bio or Chem teacher. Or apply to work as a lab technician in a school or college.
Reply 8
Oh, no drivers license? Make that a priority over doing another degree or something. It costs a ton but my company pretty much checks that as the first thing on an application (just because we're rural). I always made sure to highlight that on anything I applied for, although most of the online ones I filled in actually asked it as a direct question.

It's likely a lot of companies are based just outside the cities, rather than in them. I guess really putting across you're a keen cycler or something could help (useless, if you're not though :biggrin:) because that will address some transportation concern. Without driving capabilities though you're sort of cutting off certain jobs already (and stuff like technical service or technical support which might involve visiting other sites and customers etc.)

The language skills are awesome. Not overly useful for the entry level lab tech but after that it will be a great selling point.
Reply 9
Original post by Petulia
Did you do a sandwich degree? I thought that most people would be able to go back to the place they worked at during their placement year after graduating. Anyway if you get really desperate, you could always do a PGCE and be a Bio or Chem teacher. Or apply to work as a lab technician in a school or college.


I didn't do a sandwich year. Instead I did an exchange year in the states. It was a special scholarship that payed for me, since I somehow got decent grades.

Oh yeah a PGCE. Some of my previous class-mates are getting into this. I'm going to consider this as well, though the costs/tuition might be a pickle at the moment.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 10
Have you made any progress since?
Have you been getting interviews from any of your applications?

I've been in a similar position, graduated 3 years ago with a BSc 2.2 overall in biological sciences/biotechnology from a good university and struggled to get a graduate/science related job since. I didn't do a year in industry therefore didn't have the experience and the jobs market wasn't great back when I left. Have done other work to keep me going (currently in p/t retail job).

Last year I was offered a 3 month internship in R & D in the food industry, which I completed. However, jobs in the food industry generally require a food science/chem degree which I don't have and I was hoping to do something more relevant to my original degree - which involved microbiology, genetics, immunology etc. such as biopharma/biotech. industry.

Further study seems an attractive option in some ways but it is also a big expense and commitment and crucially I need to be sure I can get a good and enjoyable career job at the end of it. I wanted to get some professional experience behind me before perhaps applying also. I may get a break, had 4 interviews plus 2 phone/screening interviews so far this year.
With decent grades and the aim to work in the lab, why haven't you tried to apply to PHD abroad? Not applying because of one missing reference... I know the problem, but haven't you had multiple persons, who would have been able to write you a reference? Instead working as an English teacher, I would rather get a low paid job at some university lab anywhere in the world, just to get your hands back on something related to what you want to do.

It is a pity your degree has no lab work included, that is really not a sign of quality, I am afraid.

Teacher is still a possibility, but I don't think you end up lucky in that job, if it is something you only see as a way out of unemployment.

Just apply for every single opportunity you would like to take and look through application procedures for a PHDs and potential alternatives for your reference. (It just doesn't seem you tried har enough and a PHD in Chemistry is somehow crucial to be employable all over Europe.)
Reply 12
Original post by --Ali--
Have you made any progress since?
Have you been getting interviews from any of your applications?


Nope.

No progress at all, I'm afraid. I've had 2 temp jobs since I first posted, but not anywhere near a lab, or science-related. I do get more interviews than you would imagine since I speak an impressive number of languages, but I don't consider this progress, as it is not lab-related.

Worth noting: the only reason I'm able to get part-time/temp jobs is because I don't tell about my higher education and they don't ask extra questions, seeing how the job is temporary. This, of course, creates those dreaded gaps in CV, but I just tell people I took a time off for travels.


Original post by --Ali--
Last year I was offered a 3 month internship in R & D in the food industry, which I completed. However, jobs in the food industry generally require a food science/chem degree which I don't have and I was hoping to do something more relevant to my original degree - which involved microbiology, genetics, immunology etc. such as biopharma/biotech. industry.


A bit of advice: you can't afford to get picky -- at least not from the very beginning. If you can get into the food industry, then just go for it. You can use it as a stepping stone for later (as long as you don't call the potential employer a stepping stone).

Original post by --Ali--
Further study seems an attractive option in some ways but it is also a big expense and commitment and crucially I need to be sure I can get a good and enjoyable career job at the end of it. I wanted toget some professional experience behind me before perhaps applying also. I may get a break, had 4 interviews plus 2 phone/screening interviews so far this year.


The cost of further education is essential a big no for me. At least in England. Take a short flight to Belgium or Netherlands for a 2k EUR tuition per year :P



Original post by Nathanielle
With decent grades and the aim to work in the lab, why haven't you tried to apply to PHD abroad? Not applying because of one missing reference... I know the problem, but haven't you had multiple persons, who would have been able to write you a reference? Instead working as an English teacher, I would rather get a low paid job at some university lab anywhere in the world, just to get your hands back on something related to what you want to do.


Actually, I (figuratively speaking) told my MSc project supervisor to frack himself and tried to apply for PhD's about 6 months after my MSc. I had a few interviews, but fell short when it came to talk about my MSc. My number of applications was somewhat large overall, but small in any one country, -- so a large spread across EU (UK and central EU mostly). I got very few interviews, perhaps as low as 10% of applications sent.

Funny that you mention PhD abroad, since English MSc are almost exclusively 1 year in duration. While most (all?) EU MSc degrees are 2 years, putting me at a disadvantage (this actually came up during an interview).





All in all, my lesson here is: repeating the same thing and expecting different results is crazy (or some such Einstein is often cited for). If applying for certain jobs, in certain places doesn't work, it is time to try something else..... in my case, it is aiming to start a bachelor in computer science come next September.
Original post by INeedMonies
Well... I kind of get the idea that my situation is very rare, but I can't help but to wonder if there are other people in a similar situation. And, more importantly, maybe I can get an idea of how to get out of this nightmare..


So, I got my BSc in biochem (2:1) and then went for an MSc in biomed (merit), specializing in immunology (working with cells, basically). I thought of doing a PhD, but I didn't impress my MSc project supervisor => no reference letter => can't apply for PhD positions.

This was 2 years ago. I have not been able to get a lab-based job of any kind, anywhere. I am mostly applying for low-pay jobs that dont require much or any work experience (as I have none from a lab). I sent around 500+ job applications in the last 2 years (UK and EU).

From job application feedbacks, I generally get this:

- low-pay jobs (e.g. lab tech) that don't require previous work experience and only ask for lower education (A levels, sometimes BSc): I get rejected because I'm over-qualified. I guess the employer fear that I will leave for a better job etc.

- mid- to high-pay jobs: require a BSc + 1 year lab-based work experience: I get rejected because I never worked in a lab before.


How does anyone manage to survive after graduation is beyond me.... Anyone else in a similar situation? How did you get out of it? Did you change career goals? Study for another degree? Is there a way to convince an employer to hire an over-qualified person like me?


Any advice/thoughts much appreciated, thank you :P


I'm puzzled as to how your MSci didn't include an extended research project which would count as the lab work...
Reply 14
Original post by natninja
I'm puzzled as to how your MSci didn't include an extended research project which would count as the lab work...


It did. A 6 month research project. But it doesn't count as lab work... Lab experience from the academia and the industry are completely different, or at least regarded as such in the industry.

In fact, it is one of the first things an employer looks at: years of experience in the industry.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by INeedMonies
It did. A 6 month research project. But it doesn't count as lab work... Lab experience from the academia and the industry are completely different, or at least regarded as such in the industry.

In fact, it is one of the first things an employer looks at: years of experience in the industry.


Which is why everyone I know has spent all their summers doing industrial placements...
Where did you get your BSc and MSc from?

You say that your MSc project supervisor wouldn't give you a reference; was this simply because he/she was unimpressed by your work or were there interpersonal differences?
Reply 17
Original post by Ashnard
Where did you get your BSc and MSc from?


I dont wanna tell the names, but both of my BSc and MSc unis were highly ranked (around 80 and 30 in world rankings)

Original post by Ashnard
You say that your MSc project supervisor wouldn't give you a reference; was this simply because he/she was unimpressed by your work or were there interpersonal differences?


It's hard to give a full account without writing a book about it, but it was a combination of both methinks. In my view, my supervisor had it in for me and made it personal. Silly things like name-calling and swearing... etc etc

Main reason was that my MSc project supervisor, who was a post-doc, couldn't go on with his own project and instead switched to actually working on my project. He got really pissed that my work was not good enough to be used by him. This meant that he had to do stuff himself.

There was another of my classmates in the same department, but with a different supervisor. Once, he made a mistake contaminating the samples and he was told that if he did a PhD, he would kill himself. In general, the grade people got was highly dependent on their supervisors and I only got away with a merit (as did about 50% of my other classmates).



At any rate, I've just about given up and I'm planning on saving some money and getting into computer science next year.

Live and learn :P
Original post by INeedMonies

Actually, I (figuratively speaking) told my MSc project supervisor to frack himself and tried to apply for PhD's about 6 months after my MSc. I had a few interviews, but fell short when it came to talk about my MSc. My number of applications was somewhat large overall, but small in any one country, -- so a large spread across EU (UK and central EU mostly). I got very few interviews, perhaps as low as 10% of applications sent.

Funny that you mention PhD abroad, since English MSc are almost exclusively 1 year in duration. While most (all?) EU MSc degrees are 2 years, putting me at a disadvantage (this actually came up during an interview).


Hm, I just thought because different countries put a weight on different things, so if you lack in one, you may be able to compensate for another.

Concerning labwork: Yeah, you are disadvanteg, because somewhere else, you already get lab experience throughout your Bachelor degree. Concerning industrial experience: If they don't want to hire graduates, then they don't want to hire them. The probability an industrial placement would have helped that fact is neglectable, if they would like more than an insight from you. Being experienced usually means to have had worked in a position for at least three years.

Concerning computer science: Then why not chemical engineering or a degree which combines computerscience with the possibility to do projects which are chemistry related. To start entirely from the beginning seems a bit harsh and there are degrees out there, combining both with maybe the possibility to get modules counted from your old degrees.
Original post by --Ali--
Have you made any progress since?
Have you been getting interviews from any of your applications?

I've been in a similar position, graduated 3 years ago with a BSc 2.2 overall in biological sciences/biotechnology from a good university and struggled to get a graduate/science related job since. I didn't do a year in industry therefore didn't have the experience and the jobs market wasn't great back when I left. Have done other work to keep me going (currently in p/t retail job).

Last year I was offered a 3 month internship in R & D in the food industry, which I completed. However, jobs in the food industry generally require a food science/chem degree which I don't have and I was hoping to do something more relevant to my original degree - which involved microbiology, genetics, immunology etc. such as biopharma/biotech. industry.

Further study seems an attractive option in some ways but it is also a big expense and commitment and crucially I need to be sure I can get a good and enjoyable career job at the end of it. I wanted to get some professional experience behind me before perhaps applying also. I may get a break, had 4 interviews plus 2 phone/screening interviews so far this year.



That worrying for me :frown:.When you apply for more biotech orientated jobs do you apply across the spectrum (Animal, plant and microbes) or just one in particular ? and isit really hard to get employment in the pharma industry ?

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