Why study languages at uni?
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Original post by Katie_p
Ooh OK. That's very close to Uni but packed buses in either direction - you'll need to invest in a bike! 
Yep
I'm so excited Original post by Anatheme
How would they? You can basically teach yourself politics or economics far more easily than you can teach yourself languages… And given that most jobs don't even require a specific degree (because they're after soft skills that are the same across a lot of social sciences and humanities degree), having language skills will make you stand out more than it will make you seem useless.
You can't teach yourself politics or economics that easily. I'm sick of hearing that from science students, sorry. My language modules are my easiest ones to study for, because I always know what to do (more vocab practice, more grammar exercises, etc); my politics and economics units are *far* more difficult.
People think of language degrees as worthless degrees because they don't know anything about them, but trust me, that is not the case for employers.
I think you overestimate employers. They're just people too. Most of my bosses on my internship did Maths or something like that, and understandably don't know that much about what a languages degree entails.
I echo what others (especially Anatheme) have said and add my two cents as a language student. I think your best bet is to find a university that has great quality and offers courses you'll enjoy. Just living abroad doesn't mean you'll get to C2 standard, because not many natives speak this level most of their time anyway (compare university essays and the way people chat online, for example).
Besides, studying at a unviersity abroad doesn't need to be as stimulating as in the UK. I'm afraid that students of Spanish at UCL graduate with better skills overall than their peers studying Spanish at your average university in Spain. I have recently completed my Year Abroad and the students' level of academic skills was pitiful, to say at least. I found people in second year that couldn't write an essay nor reference. There were also people in third year whose research skills were horrible and couldn't fulfil set tasks because they did it completely wrong. And you couldn't expect support from most lecturers, because they didn't bother to learn our names (on the other hand, there were regularly at least 80 people in a single class) nor give you feedback on your work. They were msotly just talking machines that came in, recited their texts and examined what you learnt by heart out of it at the end of semester.
Besides, studying at a unviersity abroad doesn't need to be as stimulating as in the UK. I'm afraid that students of Spanish at UCL graduate with better skills overall than their peers studying Spanish at your average university in Spain. I have recently completed my Year Abroad and the students' level of academic skills was pitiful, to say at least. I found people in second year that couldn't write an essay nor reference. There were also people in third year whose research skills were horrible and couldn't fulfil set tasks because they did it completely wrong. And you couldn't expect support from most lecturers, because they didn't bother to learn our names (on the other hand, there were regularly at least 80 people in a single class) nor give you feedback on your work. They were msotly just talking machines that came in, recited their texts and examined what you learnt by heart out of it at the end of semester.
Original post by blackwid0w
How's Warwick? Do you mind me asking if you got an A in German at AS? I was thinking of applying there for the same course but I'm pretty sure I'll have gotten no better than a B this year in German so I'm not sure I'd get an offer...
I got a good A at AS but just scraped the A overall for the A-level. If you're predicted an A, then absolutely go for it! But they will need you to get the A - they sometimes forgive a grade drop at confirmation, but not in the language.
I've met people from Oxford and Cardiff doing similar courses and whilst I'd say Warwick demands more of you in the year abroad, it prepares you much better for it than the others. Feel free to PM me if you want to know anything else!
Original post by Nymthae
This I think is what sort of steered me away from the path. My situation was more clear cut though (science) because I literally wouldn't be able to enter the sector at all by not doing the subject. Although that said, when you look at the below...
Oh it's definitely far more useful for vocational subjects than the other humanities. You simply can't get a sciencey job without a sciencey degree or other route in!
Original post by RibenaRockstar
Yep I'm so excited
I'm so excited did you say you were coming out for the September course?Original post by Katie_p
did you say you were coming out for the September course?
did you say you were coming out for the September course?I was going to, but I got a summer internship which I would have been nuts to turn down which finishes after that starts, so I'm just doing the week's course.
I think one thing an employer can recognise, is that someone who can speak a language has a skill that can be utilised. I think aside from all the soft skills, it's effectively a "technical skill" in itself, even if language is something we use in conjunction with other things, rather than by itself. For any international company, they're always going to look favourably on it.
Original post by Anatheme
At the end of the day, we both agree that combining languages with something else is the best way to go on about it. The thing is you see straight language degrees as utterly pointless, when I see them as being a platform. Having done a straight language degree, and currently doing an MA in IR, the difference is that what I learnt at MA level I could have easily acquired by other means. My language skills, not so much, and certainly not through just immersing myself for a year or two.
I don't see it as utterly pointless, just far less useful than other options. It's better than sitting on your bum for 4 years doing nothing, but really not the best option out there.
If people choose to do it then that's their decision, but I think it's all too easy to do a language because you're good at it and spend time and money on a degree you either don't need, or could have made more relevant to the job you eventually decide to do.
Original post by Anatheme
I got to study history, literature, politics and a wealth of other things during my undergrad, and although I'm a generalist in that I know several subjects, I've specialised in Russian-Middle Eastern international relations and Russian politics because my degree allowed me to do so. Now at MA-level, I realise that I'm certainly not the only one having specialised in these topics, but that unlike my coursemates who learnt these topics through the social sciences lens and had evening classes in a language (when they even bothered with a language), my CV stands out far more than theirs even though we know the same things, because my undergraduate degree is so different but I still have the knowledge employers* are after (if not more as I got to live abroad and experience things first hand.)
Well, you bothered to do that, which is great. I have no idea how many other linguists do the same, but those I've met personally seem to specialise as little as possible and sometimes even just choose the "easiest" modules. Of course you can do that in any degree, but it's probably easier to coast through a language degree and come out looking bad on your CV than a specific social science or humanity, because these require you to go into far more depth even at the easy end.
If someone chooses to do a language to take the route you did, and specialises within their course, it's very different to just coasting through and having nothing except "(almost) fluent in X" at the end of the 4 years.
Original post by Anatheme
Your original point was basically saying that straight language degrees are useless - what do you do if that's what you're genuinely interested in? Force yourself to pick another subject you don't really like for the sake of employment prospects?
Actually, yes. I'm not part of the "get into thousands of pounds of debt because you like the subject" crowd, and if you can't find another subject you'd like to combine with the language, maybe you're better off trying to learn by immersion? If you only like the language, either go into translation/interpretation, or accept that you actually need something more going for you than being bilingual and try to hone other talents and gain other employable skills.
You could achieve this through internships, but having an internship or work experience in law, investment banking, teaching and whatever else looks confused. It's fine to be confused, and not know what you want to do, but honestly, you should be able to choose one subject you'd like to do as well. Dipping your foot in every pool doesn't look good to employers, no matter how many transferable skills it gives you, or how much it helps you discover the one field you really really want to work in.
Original post by Anatheme
As long as you can relate your degree and your skills to a job, I genuinely don't think employers are bothered by the fact that you've done straight languages, and if you can prove you're as good as someone who has done a "more relevant" subject, you will certainly not be penalised.
I just think it's difficult to prove this if you're not really committed, and as I said above, if you've chosen a language because you're lost, you're unlikely to be that committed. There are people for whom it works, perhaps better than other routes, but there are plenty who get stuck looking like everyone else who did a pretty general art or humanity degree.
Original post by Anatheme
Straight language degrees are as pointless (or useful) as any other non-vocational degree out there, to be completely honest, I still don't believe someone who's done History and a language is any more employable than someone who did straight languages.
At the risk of sounding like a subject snob again, this is partly my point. Combining a language with a vocation > combining a language with a non-vocational subject >/= doing a language on it's own.
But even with non-vocational subjects, you have a deeper understanding of an area that may be desirable to the employer than does a language student (who hasn't consciously specialised within his degree).
Original post by Anatheme
I never said that "immersion doesn't work", I specifically said it was not adapted to everyone, because everyone learns differently. From a language-learning point of view, I don't think immersion early on (which is what universities offer and what a lot of people in these forums advocate) is the most efficient way to go on about learning a language. I believe that you can get as much out of it after having spent a certain time learning a language at home in a formal context. And don't take my word for it, have a look at the work of hyperglots and polyglots (Alexander Arguelles, Laoshu505000) who don't have the time or money to immerse themselves yet achieve high levels in their chosen languages. Immersion is a useful tool, but it's not the only way to go on about learning a language.
I didn't mean to imply you had, only that others have said or implied such. But immersion is cheaper than a degree, and in many cases more effective than self-teaching. It doesn't work for everyone, but if it does work, it does so very well and cost-effectively.
Original post by Anatheme
You don't really, though… I mean, who bothers learning about random history literature when they're out there in a country? You get used to a certain layer of the culture of a country, but a degree in languages will offer you more than that.
You don't really, though… I mean, who bothers learning about random history literature when they're out there in a country? You get used to a certain layer of the culture of a country, but a degree in languages will offer you more than that.
This is exactly what I mean about needing the right personality and attitude. You either don't learn it because it's not useful or relevant - in which case, what are the benefits of doing it in a degree? or because you can't be bothered or simple aren't interested enough - in which case the structure of the degree helps you to stay motivated or learn o be interested.
This again is where you get to the interest/vocation divide, and you're saying you can perhaps learn the vocation things from immersion (for example, historical and modern attitudes towards displays of nationalism in Germany, which would be useful for living or working there, or with Germans), but not interests (the works of Goethe). You can learn the objectively useful things with a bit of work, and the subjectively interesting with a lot more - but the general attitude is that the letter is less useful. So why does it matter if you don't do it?
Original post by Anatheme
And again, you do specialise, it just depends on what you did in during your undergrad. You can do that by selecting specific modules, or by focusing on a particular area, I don't understand why you can't see this as specialising. I picked most of the politics module I was allowed to choose, a friend of mine chose to do as many as they could on communism in Russia (through politics modules, history modules and even literature modules). You can specialise in many different ways.
Yes, it's specialising, if you consciously choose it. But if you have 8 options and choose them across 4 subjects, that's not really specialising, just slightly better knowledge than someone who didn't study it at all.
And even so, your average employer will consider "politics and Russian" to lead to a better knowledge of politics than "Russian" where the student chose as many politics modules as possible whether this is the case or not.
This is why I'm going to stick to a science degree and then keep up languages in my own time
I resent people who post only to criticise other people's choice of degree. I totally agree with Anatheme and I would rep her if I could. The idea that people should study a subject they don't like because some people consider it more employable is just so ridiculous and incredibly short-sighted, and this coming from a law student of all people. Law is hardly the most employable degree, in fact it has comparably poor graduate prospects compared with languages.
I'm very happy with my choice of degree and can't wait to start. I would have preferred to combine Norwegian with geography or geology but such a degree doesn't exist. I had to decide whether my interest in the physical earth was worth giving up Norwegian and the answer is no, not least because I can study geography in the future whereas university is my only chance to do Scandinavian Studies.
Katie_p's assumption that only students who are naturally good at languages do language degrees (and therefore coast through) is particularly insulting. I have always found languages difficult, I dropped them when I was 14 and didn't return to them until I was 20 - I am interested in them so I am forcing myself to learn them. If I wanted an easy life I would have done science. As has already been said, language learning is only one part of the degree so even the most gifted of linguists would have to work hard in other subjects to pass. Conversely, students who are good at maths can and often do drop all non-numerical subjects after their GCSES, they never study anything but maths throughout sixth form and university... so why aren't you accusing students in the maths sub-forum of coasting?
I'm very happy with my choice of degree and can't wait to start. I would have preferred to combine Norwegian with geography or geology but such a degree doesn't exist. I had to decide whether my interest in the physical earth was worth giving up Norwegian and the answer is no, not least because I can study geography in the future whereas university is my only chance to do Scandinavian Studies.
Katie_p's assumption that only students who are naturally good at languages do language degrees (and therefore coast through) is particularly insulting. I have always found languages difficult, I dropped them when I was 14 and didn't return to them until I was 20 - I am interested in them so I am forcing myself to learn them. If I wanted an easy life I would have done science. As has already been said, language learning is only one part of the degree so even the most gifted of linguists would have to work hard in other subjects to pass. Conversely, students who are good at maths can and often do drop all non-numerical subjects after their GCSES, they never study anything but maths throughout sixth form and university... so why aren't you accusing students in the maths sub-forum of coasting?
(edited 9 years ago)
Would rep Anatheme if I could. Speaking so much sense
Original post by Katie_p
I personally think that doing a straight Langauge degree is the biggest waste of time and money possible.
But a language on its own is pointless.
But a language on its own is pointless.
Katie_p, how arrogant are you?! To say studying a language degree is pointless is so insulting to people who have a genuine interest in languages... without feeling the need to study something that they may feel is irrelevant to them, such as politics or IR.
It's always a common re occurrence in the news that the UK job market is desperately in need of more language applicants and I find it quite hilarious how you're studying German (albeit it with law) yet you're almost bashing those who are opting to studying languages at degree level - AND almost making languages at uni sound off-putting.
Original post by Katie_p
I'm doing European Law
I guess if I wanted to be petty like you, I could say doing an LLB at the moment is also "a waste of money" as the UK is saturated with law graduates. You may well argue that you're at an advantage because you're studying European Law but at the end of the day it's still a LLB.
Peace.
Original post by trianglehate
Katie_p, how arrogant are you?! To say studying a language degree is pointless is so insulting to people who have a genuine interest in languages... without feeling the need to study something that they may feel is irrelevant to them, such as politics or IR.
It's always a common re occurrence in the news that the UK job market is desperately in need of more language applicants and I find it quite hilarious how you're studying German (albeit it with law) yet you're almost bashing those who are opting to studying languages at degree level - AND almost making languages at uni sound off-putting.
oh the irony
I guess if I wanted to be petty like you, I could say doing an LLB at the moment is also "a waste of money" as the UK is saturated with law graduates. You may well argue that you're at an advantage because you're studying European Law but at the end of the day it's still a LLB.
Peace.
It's always a common re occurrence in the news that the UK job market is desperately in need of more language applicants and I find it quite hilarious how you're studying German (albeit it with law) yet you're almost bashing those who are opting to studying languages at degree level - AND almost making languages at uni sound off-putting.
oh the irony
I guess if I wanted to be petty like you, I could say doing an LLB at the moment is also "a waste of money" as the UK is saturated with law graduates. You may well argue that you're at an advantage because you're studying European Law but at the end of the day it's still a LLB.
Peace.
Oh sorry, you live in your little world of languages being the best thing since sliced bread whilst I'm rocking up with my LLB earning big money.
^^^^ that's arrogance.
Stating that I think something is a waste of time and money is not arrogant. I think buying fast cars is a waste of money. I think spending hours at the gym is a waste of time. I stated quite clearly that it's my opinion, and I gave my reasoning.
You can find it hilarious all you like but my degree is not, in fact, in German. It's in European law. I study some classes in German, but apart from 10 hours of language tuition worth no credit, I have not studied anything that would be covered by a law degree.
I'm not bashing those who choose to study languages at University in general. I have stated that I think many do so because they don't know what else to do, or because their sole aim is to become fluent (possibly whilst living the student lifestyle).
My entire point in giving my opinion was to help those considering languages realise that there are other options. If they wish to go ahead, then that is absolutely fine, and I hope that what others have said will draw them back towards languages, and that what I have said will guide them to making the most of their degree and not just coasting through.
You could indeed say I'm wasting time and money doing an LLB. It's something I wish someone had said to me before I started, but I don't want to practise law.
However, as I have also stated previously, I will graduate with a knowledge not just of German, but of the German legal system and specific vocabulary, as well as a law degree. Sure, for 90% of jobs, I'll be on equal footing (on the basis of degree alone) with a German graduate, but for that other 10%, I will have the specialist knowledge that tips the balance in my favour.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I think there are many options that people considering doing a language at University should consider. It's not just about the degree, it's about what you want to do at the end of it, and what else you can do to help on your journey there.
By all means, study a language (or two) at university. But if you fail to specialise during your four years, you should be aware that you will be at a disadvantage. It's a tough market, and young people need information to help them make better choices. I'm not saying a language is the wrong choice, by any means. I'm saying that if you choose to do it, you should have considered alternatives, and you should make the most of it, as goes for any degree.
How dare you suggest language students only chose their subject because they are indolent. You say you don't want to offend anyone but you have done nothing else since you began posting. I would merrily neg you right now if I could.
You plainly have no experience with language degrees, or the graduate job market for that natter, so you are in no position to help or advise prospective language students. Your opinions are completely baseless so I hope any prospective linguist reading this thread has the good sense to discount your posts entirely. I know I have.
You've said your bit, unless you're going to answer my questions, you can have nothing else to say.
You plainly have no experience with language degrees, or the graduate job market for that natter, so you are in no position to help or advise prospective language students. Your opinions are completely baseless so I hope any prospective linguist reading this thread has the good sense to discount your posts entirely. I know I have.
You've said your bit, unless you're going to answer my questions, you can have nothing else to say.
Original post by Katie_p
You can find it hilarious all you like but my degree is not, in fact, in German. It's in European law.
I never said your degree was in German, I can see that from your profile. I said I find it hilarious how you're giving languages such a bad name yet you're IN GERMANY, studying the language?! Regardless of whether that's because you're studying European Law.
Original post by Katie_p
I'm not bashing those who choose to study languages at University in general. I have stated that I think many do so because they don't know what else to do, or because their sole aim is to become fluent (possibly whilst living the student lifestyle).
Is this a joke? This isn't even a valid point and I cannot believe you can even say such a thing. Anyone can argue that some students go to uni not knowing what they want to do, regardless of what course, but to say that this is more common in amongst language students is ridiculous.Original post by Katie_p
You could indeed say I'm wasting time and money doing an LLB. It's something I wish someone had said to me before I started, but I don't want to practise law.
However, as I have also stated previously, I will graduate with a knowledge not just of German, but of the German legal system and specific vocabulary, as well as a law degree. Sure, for 90% of jobs, I'll be on equal footing (on the basis of degree alone) with a German graduate, but for that other 10%, I will have the specialist knowledge that tips the balance in my favour.
However, as I have also stated previously, I will graduate with a knowledge not just of German, but of the German legal system and specific vocabulary, as well as a law degree. Sure, for 90% of jobs, I'll be on equal footing (on the basis of degree alone) with a German graduate, but for that other 10%, I will have the specialist knowledge that tips the balance in my favour.
Well anyone could argue you could have done a GDL but quite frankly the way I see it, you have decided to study something that genuinely interests you - as you have said - and something you think will enhance your career prospects, just like those who decide to study languages at uni. Sure, anyone can move study/move abroad like you've done in Konstanz, but you're not really learning the true depth of the language, are you? There is so much more to just the language side of a languages degree - you can do modules in translation, history, literature... I doubt it would be as possible to do such things without a degree.
Original post by Katie_p
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I think there are many options that people considering doing a language at University should consider. It's not just about the degree, it's about what you want to do at the end of it, and what else you can do to help on your journey there.
Well you have been offensive and not only have I noticed this but so have several other members on this thread. You may not have meant to be offensive but you have come across as completely disregarding/devaluing languages when this is far from the case.
Original post by Katie_p
By all means, study a language (or two) at university. But if you fail to specialise during your four years, you should be aware that you will be at a disadvantage.
Sorry, what? Couldn't you say this about any degree? That's the chance we make when opting to study for a degree. There isn't a guarantee of walking into a job afterwards, we make what we can out of it. You may have 'specialised' by doing European Law but you said yourself, you don't want to practise law, so what exactly do you plan on doing?
Original post by Katie_p
It's a tough market, and young people need information to help them make better choices. I'm not saying a language is the wrong choice, by any means. I'm saying that if you choose to do it, you should have considered alternatives, and you should make the most of it, as goes for any degree.
Well I'm sorry but I completely disagree. A language degree is a very valuable degree to have. Because there has been such a decline in language applicants/students in the UK in recent years, having a degree in a language will definitely provide a good chance of finding a career. Of course this isn't the case for all graduates, but it puts you in a good steed. As I said, law is so competitive (along with a few other degrees) that you're more likely to struggle.
(edited 9 years ago)
I've been told by a lot of employers that MDL is their favourite degree to hire graduates (either working or trainees - law is a particular one that keeps cropping up and saying this) from because they're so well-rounded and have so much experience. So there's that.
It isn't all about end job prospects. I think I might've been unhappy if I went with my original idea of applying for a course to get a specific job. Besides that, plenty of people switch careers in their lifetime.
It isn't all about end job prospects. I think I might've been unhappy if I went with my original idea of applying for a course to get a specific job. Besides that, plenty of people switch careers in their lifetime.
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