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What do you think a 'United States of Europe' would look like? Watch

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    I'm certainly no supporter of further EU integration though the idea of an EU superstate is an interesting one to think about. In some ways being part of an integrated federal EU as if it were a nation state would be beneficial as it could become the world's dominant power and balance the interests of the USA and China.

    However it seems to me that achieving this is impossible without having to sacrifice each European nation's culture, identity and language. The USA and China only work because each state/province shares the national interests, culture and language. I'm studying in China right now and though linguistically and culturally China is very diverse; whether it be the different ethnic minorities such as Tibetans, Xinjiang Uyghurs, Manchu people etc. Or the different Han languages and cultures I.e Cantonese, Shanghainese ect. Local languages and culture are being eroded in favour of further integration between provinces.

    There's a video on YouTube called "Hidden treasures of Europe" (Sorry can't figure out how to link videos on a tablet) by the European commission which shows images of beautiful European locations and says "France? No it's Serbia", for example . This to me shows that the European commission's intention is to make all of Europe the same. I personally find such a thing horrifying, I want France to be France, Serbia to be Serbia etc. I appreciate the diversity in Europe and I believe that EU integration is a threat to that.

    Because EU member states are so different from one another, how could further integration with the EU not result in the loss of local languages and culture. What language would a federal Europe be speaking for example?

    So ask yourself the question, are you willing to sacrifice your nationality and your nation's sovereignty in order to become part of a 'European nation state' to gain more geopolitical power and political influence?

    Or is it better for us and other European nations to retain their identity and sovereignty in a trading union without interference from a central governing body and do you think it is possible for the UK to retain this kind of relationship with the EU if other countries are pushing for further integration?

    Discuss

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    Imho, the UK needs to stay in the EU, basically because it is so important for our economy, etc. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-9561108.html
    I can't foresee a situation in which all of the countries in the EU would merge to become one state. But, if that did happen, I definetly think that eaach country would still retain it's own culture and language. After all, there is free labour movement between EU countries right now, and that doesn't seem to have affected the culture of any country drastically. Yes, increasing numbers of people in countries like Finland and Germany are learning how to speak English to a high level, but the same is happening in China and Switzerland, plus people aren't learning to speak English instead of their native language, they're learning it in addition. As for retaining its own culture, Texas is a totally different place to New York.
    If there was a federal Europe, I reckon that if there was one main language, it would be English or Interlingua, or there would just be more than one main language.
    Am I willing to sacrific my nationality and my nation's sovereignty in order to gain more geopolitical power and political influence? Well, would make the UK a better place, would it make living standards higher, would it be a big boost for our economy? If the answer was no, then I would probably say no. Tbh this situation is so unlikely that it's hard to say how I would feel about it.
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    You need a culture to form state which can create just laws on the people of the culture. This is why I say nations state are cultures which form state which create laws to reinforce the culture.

    Would an EU culture be possible. Culture being Religion, Language and Enviroment. Well no I don't think a EU or European culture is possible. Not so much for language or religious reasons. Rather Enviroment the EU has many different regions with large geographical barriers from north to south and east to west with no inter connecting river network like the US or long rivers which flow into the Ocean like China. Europe is best having many different cultures and countries competing against each other on a regional level.
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    (Original post by GHSilver)
    I'm certainly no supporter of further EU integration though the idea of an EU superstate is an interesting one to think about. In some ways being part of an integrated federal EU as if it were a nation state would be beneficial as it could become the world's dominant power and balance the interests of the USA and China.

    However it seems to me that achieving this is impossible without having to sacrifice each European nation's culture, identity and language. The USA and China only work because each state/province shares the national interests, culture and language. I'm studying in China right now and though linguistically and culturally China is very diverse; whether it be the different ethnic minorities such as Tibetans, Xinjiang Uyghurs, Manchu people etc. Or the different Han languages and cultures I.e Cantonese, Shanghainese ect. Local languages and culture are being eroded in favour of further integration between provinces.
    They are countries. The EU isn't, and can never be one.

    There's a video on YouTube called "Hidden treasures of Europe" (Sorry can't figure out how to link videos on a tablet) by the European commission which shows images of beautiful European locations and says "France? No it's Serbia", for example . This to me shows that the European commission's intention is to make all of Europe the same. I personally find such a thing horrifying, I want France to be France, Serbia to be Serbia etc. I appreciate the diversity in Europe and I believe that EU integration is a threat to that.
    How the devil do you deduce from that Youtube video that the Commission wants to 'make all of Europe the same'?

    Because EU member states are so different from one another, how could further integration with the EU not result in the loss of local languages and culture. What language would a federal Europe be speaking for example?

    So ask yourself the question, are you willing to sacrifice your nationality and your nation's sovereignty in order to become part of a 'European nation state' to gain more geopolitical power and political influence?

    Or is it better for us and other European nations to retain their identity and sovereignty in a trading union without interference from a central governing body and do you think it is possible for the UK to retain this kind of relationship with the EU if other countries are pushing for further integration?

    Discuss
    Why is it either/or? We can integrate to a point to meet our interests and then hold our own elsewhere. National identities are considerably more robust than you give them credit for, and no amount of integration is going to suppress national identity unless by genuinely democratic means. The fact that Scotland remains quite nationalistic and is now actively considering leaving the UK shows how strong national identities are.
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    A federal Europe would contain between 10-20 states (others like the UK would leave), it would have the second largest navy and air force in the world, it should if its smart speak English and Spanish and would be overall a secular state.

    Not being a cultural conservative I actually support the existence of a European federation, I'm just not sure the UK should be in it.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A federal Europe would contain between 10-20 states (others like the UK would leave), it would have the second largest navy and air force in the world, it should if its smart speak English and Spanish and would be overall a secular state.

    Not being a cultural conservative I actually support the existence of a European federation, I'm just not sure the UK should be in it.
    It would speak German and French. Would it without the UK and 7 other member states have the second biggest navy and airforce?

    It would overall be Christian outside of the government, with the government being secular and trying to weaken the Christians, as it does now.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    They are countries. The EU isn't, and can never be one.
    Why could it never be one? If it's member states want it to be a country it will become a country. If the European Parliament gets to dictate what nation states do, doesn't allow them to have border controls, forces them to adopt the shared currency (no control over fiscal or monetary policy), sets spending and taxation rates then the EU is effectively a country whether it declares it or not. I'm arguing that in order for the people of Europe to accept the loss of national sovereignty it needs to clamp down on national identity in order to promote European identity.

    (Original post by gladders)
    How the devil do you deduce from that Youtube video that the Commission wants to 'make all of Europe the same'?
    I'm not saying that they definitely are, I'm saying that the video treats the fact that different EU countries are becoming more similar to one another as a good thing. Whereas I, and I'm sure many others disagree.

    (Original post by gladders)
    Why is it either/or? We can integrate to a point to meet our interests and then hold our own elsewhere. National identities are considerably more robust than you give them credit for, and no amount of integration is going to suppress national identity unless by genuinely democratic means. The fact that Scotland remains quite nationalistic and is now actively considering leaving the UK shows how strong national identities are.
    The point is the EU not being integrated enough is the reason many in mainland europe feel was the cause of the problems experienced during the financial crisis and therefore want further intergration. That's the direction most countries in Europe want to follow. It's true that we are in a position that we're partly integrated into Europe and wouldn't have to follow the majority of EU member states that want to be further integrated (due to not being part of the single currency). But how long can that deal last? The EU commission has been clear that it wants all member states to adopt the euro by 2020. Not doing so would probably result in us being put into the European Economic Area, which I don't believe would be a bad thing.

    What I'm asking is, would an integrated federal europe be preferrable to a simple trading bloc for UK, whether or not it is as a part of it or simply trading with it. I don't think that with the direction the EU is headed that we could remain partially integrated and not be forced to go along with the flow. If Europe wants to integrate in ways we don't like, then our very abstinence would be a threat to the change the EU commission wanted. New member states or existing ones would be able to say "Hey but the UK doesn't have to use the euro/gets exemptions from regulations X/Y/Z!"



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    I think the problem here is that you equating a federal union on a European level with the destruction/weakening of national identities, cultures and languages and their replacement with a "European" identity. Identity is fluid and can exist on many different levels and a federal Europe, whether or not one agrees with it politically, is no more likely to erode those national identities than the United Kingdom managed to erode Scottish/Irish/Welsh identity in the 300/500/700 years of union. Strong regional identities remain in federal countries, including those who are most in favour of a federalised Europe. Just ask a Provencal if he's the same as a Parisian, a Lombard if he's the same as a Sicilian or a Bavarian if she's the same as an Ost-y (East German).

    So if we do get a ferderalised United States of Europe, then it would make things like tax rates, currency, budgets, education systems etc. more standard across the continent, and would probably continue (as it always has) to work in English, French and German. Other than that I see very little that would change in terms of national identity/culture etc.
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    (Original post by ellie.rew)
    I think the problem here is that you equating a federal union on a European level with the destruction/weakening of national identities, cultures and languages and their replacement with a "European" identity. Identity is fluid and can exist on many different levels and a federal Europe, whether or not one agrees with it politically, is no more likely to erode those national identities than the United Kingdom managed to erode Scottish/Irish/Welsh identity in the 300/500/700 years of union. Strong regional identities remain in federal countries, including those who are most in favour of a federalised Europe. Just ask a Provencal if he's the same as a Parisian, a Lombard if he's the same as a Sicilian or a Bavarian if she's the same as an Ost-y (East German).

    So if we do get a ferderalised United States of Europe, then it would make things like tax rates, currency, budgets, education systems etc. more standard across the continent, and would probably continue (as it always has) to work in English, French and German. Other than that I see very little that would change in terms of national identity/culture etc.


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    I agree that on some level there will always be cultural differences between the member states but seeing as each member state is so different from one another (as compared to US states or Chinese Provinces) I still believe however that some degree of the dumbing down of nationalities has to be pursued to ensure the effectiveness of federal EU. Why then would a poor German want a portion of his money through taxes given to a poor Spaniard for example. In the UK I don't believe we would complain as much for tax money collected in the south going up towards the north.

    Immigration which is of course unlimited in the European union can have a large effect on local culture. If you gave the western provinces of Xinjiang and Tibet a Democratic referendum on whether to leave China (obviously they won't get one) they would most likely vote to stay in as the population of Han Chinese in these areas is over 60% nowadays. Quebec in Canada was made easier to emigrate to than other parts of Canada by the Canadian government in order to manipulate the makeup of the voting population in an attempt to reduce the support for Quebec independence. Similarly the Soviet Union moved large amounts of ethnic Russians into other Soviet republics such as the Baltic countries, where after the incidents in the Ukraine countries such as Latvia are concerned about what effect the large population of ethnic Russians living in the east of the country will have on their nation's sovereignty.
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    I can't see as it would be particularly different from what we have now.

    If you think in the USA, texas, california, new york, georgia, maine, idaho etc, all have very different characteristics and identities and maintain huge amounts of autonomy like having different laws etc, so how would a USE be any different?
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    I personally believe a superstate would be very good, I believe that Europe is actually a beacon of freedom, more so than the USA.

    However things are fine as they are with the union and I think if Europe was ever threatened we would band together militarily. Having an organisational system in place for if and when Europe is threatened would be to our benefit.

    Like someone said we would have one of the biggest militaries in the world, however I don't think a European army should fly about getting involved in everything like America. I think it should just be in place in case we ever face a real threat


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    A united Europe would be great for the long term. But I can't be bothered to be the generation who makes the transition and subsequently has to deal with the inevitable messiness of it all.

    So it should happen... after I'm gone. :cool:
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    (Original post by GHSilver)
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    I agree that on some level there will always be cultural differences between the member states but seeing as each member state is so different from one another (as compared to US states or Chinese Provinces) I still believe however that some degree of the dumbing down of nationalities has to be pursued to ensure the effectiveness of federal EU. Why then would a poor German want a portion of his money through taxes given to a poor Spaniard for example. In the UK I don't believe we would complain as much for tax money collected in the south going up towards the north.

    Immigration which is of course unlimited in the European union can have a large effect on local culture. If you gave the western provinces of Xinjiang and Tibet a Democratic referendum on whether to leave China (obviously they won't get one) they would most likely vote to stay in as the population of Han Chinese in these areas is over 60% nowadays. Quebec in Canada was made easier to emigrate to than other parts of Canada by the Canadian government in order to manipulate the makeup of the voting population in an attempt to reduce the support for Quebec independence. Similarly the Soviet Union moved large amounts of ethnic Russians into other Soviet republics such as the Baltic countries, where after the incidents in the Ukraine countries such as Latvia are concerned about what effect the large population of ethnic Russians living in the east of the country will have on their nation's sovereignty.
    Quite frankly you're wrong about the need for differences to be leveled out - I imagine I have much more in common with a Pole or a German than your average Beijing or Shanghai Han Chinese has with a rural Uigher or Tibeten, in terms of language, culture and shared history. My point in either case is that these identities are manufactured in any case - even if you reduce China to its Han majority, they could still quite easily be divided into several different nation states (they have been in the past and indeed are still, if you look at Taiwan) without disrupting the idea of a common identity. It's no more unreasonable for a German to subsidise a Spaniard than it is a Londoner to subsidise Northern Irish nationalists: its a matter of political and popular will, based on an idea of mutual interest (of which shared identity plays a part) rather than only being possible if you erode all major differences.

    Your immigration argument is also wrong, because you use incomparable cases where there is a large dominant majority immigrating into minority areas, thus homogenizing and gaining control. There is no equivalent to Russians or Han Chinese in Europe and if there were it would be either the Germans or the British. You never hear of anyone moaning about the tide of German immigration brought on by the EU do you? Go to France or Spain though and listen to them complain about British immigrants...

    But seriously, given that there has been c.30 years of unrestricted movement between member states without any country becoming swamped with its natives as a minority (despite what UKIP say), I don't think there's much to worry about.
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    In short --- HELL!
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    (Original post by This Is Matt)
    In short --- HELL!
    If the UK left the EU i'm curious as to why you'd oppose the remainder becoming federal unless you agree with OP with regards to cultural conservatism.
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    Whatever a "United States of Europe" would look like, the UK absolutely should not be a part of it. And given how diverse in culture and language Europe is, a USE would be difficult to create and there would probably be considerable opposition to it.
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    Poop. It would look like total poop.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A federal Europe would contain between 10-20 states (others like the UK would leave), it would have the second largest navy and air force in the world, it should if its smart speak English and Spanish and would be overall a secular state.

    Not being a cultural conservative I actually support the existence of a European federation, I'm just not sure the UK should be in it.
    English and Spanish ain't gonna **** well with the Germans and French.

    I can see Angela giving it 'hola, que tal?'.....
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    English and Spanish ain't gonna **** well with the Germans and French.

    I can see Angela giving it 'hola, que tal?'.....
    Well unfortunately for them, German is not spoken widely and French is resigned mainly to a part of Africa infested by terrorists and not going anywhere. Spanish is encroaching in the US as a second language, most Brazilians (though they speak Portugese officially) have a reasonable grasp of it and the likes of Nigeria, the east african federation (if it finally forms) and India ensure that English will dominate.

    (Original post by RFowler)
    Whatever a "United States of Europe" would look like, the UK absolutely should not be a part of it. And given how diverse in culture and language Europe is, a USE would be difficult to create and there would probably be considerable opposition to it.
    Hence my comment about 10-20 versus the 28 (and increasing) number now. You can see from the European elections once you ignore the Ukip rhetoric that actually rather than the skeptics sweeping across the board there were various pockets where they were nowhere and some where they did extremely well. Thus, i'd expect the EU to shed weight in the future leaving mainly the countries who rejected the skeptics this time.
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    I Imagine we'd have a political system which mirrors what there is in the US.

    There would be a constitution that all member states subscribe to and must abide by.

    The EU Parliament would have a lower house, where countries are allocated seats proportionally as is now, but a new upper house would need to be created, where each country is allocated an equal number of seats, to prevent more populous countries dominating smaller ones. It would have massive new legislative powers over the constituent states, powers to levy taxes, powers to create and regulate an EU military, powers to regulate trade, commerce and the economy.

    I imagine we would have a system of federal courts in every member state and a EU Supreme Court. EU courts would handle certain criminal cases, large civil cases and cases between member states. The federal courts would have the power of judicial review, which would mean that a citizen of one particular state could take their government to court and have a law or action overturned. Equivalently, prisoners in EU states could seek to have their sentence overturned in EU federal courts.
 
 
 
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