State school kids are less intelligent than other types. Discuss.

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Reply 60

username878045

Original post by DErasmus

How is this done?

Primarily by looking at twins separated soon after birth.

Reply 61

Kabulkid

state school kids r dumb as hell lol.

Reply 62

Joinedup

Original post by PythianLegume

Primarily by looking at twins separated soon after birth.

I'm aware of the monozygotic twin studies on the heritibility of IQ, largely I'll admit from listening to this

however I've not heard about twin studies supporting

this

Original post by PythianLegume

Intelligence is definitely linked to the quality of education you receive.

or this

Original post by PythianLegume

Furthermore, even if you did look at pure genetic intelligence, private school children would still be more intelligent, because their parents tend to be more intelligent (on the general rule that rich people are smarter, which despite many exceptions is a pretty solid rule).

though at least one of those twin studies found quite a strong correlation between higher IQ and the economic status of the adopting family... it's be hard to tease apart the genetic and environmental effects for kids with rich genes and rich upbringings... obviously it's in the nature of things that the kids of poor parents are adopted into rich families more often than the other way around.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 63

Dalek1099

Original post by Damien_Dalgaard

Is it true that state(meaning here average comps and below, excluding grammar, so non-selective maintained schools) school students academically are less able than private/grammar/boarding/private candidates.

I am classifying grammar schools to be separate to state, i.e. King Edwards, Colchester Grammar go under grammar and not state.

Also not including schools like K12 and those that have high entry requirements for students i.e. Hills etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/10590089/Top-100-secondary-schools-by-A-level-results-2013.html

Obviously I know of some users in particular here, who are extremely smart and go to state comps, but on the whole state=worse :yep:

Big picture guys.

Also plz none of the James Dyson, Alan Sugar responses - talking about the current crop, plus those entrepreneurs had great ideas anyway.

Discuss.

To get into a Private School, you need to have rich parents to pay the fees if they are rich they are likely to be intelligent and a lot of studies have showed strong inheritance(50-70%) of intelligence from parents to children- so yes private school children are a lot cleverer than state school pupils.

Now that people don't have to rely on intelligence to survive, evolution that would have caused cleverer people to outnumber/(cause the extinction of) those who are poor due to natural selection and parents passing genes onto their children hasn't happened and what has happened is to create two separate groups the rich and poor,through which there is barely any movement for transition bar outliers/anomalies- discussed below.

Although, things are in reality more complicated than that eg.what if your family has complicated genetics like some are clever and some aren't-I have dumb parents but all my uncles are really really clever(my uncle got the best results in his school and my mam and dad struggled at school and got Ds and Es mainly and I got the best results in my school) and of course there are exceptions anomalies and in these groups state school students, who do well fit in ; there is a lot of support to help them get into university and make sure they can pay their fees, with tuition fee loans.

The fact that the Government and several other organisations seem shocked by the huge gap in achievement between Private and State Schools, shocks me yes there is a much better education in Private Schools but there is a lot of support to help State School Students-from what I have seen those clever students at State Schools have the opportunity to do as well as their ability, whilst this didn't use to be the case.

Reply 64

Hariex

*makes an intellectually selective public school*

Oh look, they're all so intelligent!

Reply 65

username878045

Original post by Joinedup

I'm aware of the monozygotic twin studies on the heritibility of IQ, largely I'll admit from listening to this

however I've not heard about twin studies supporting

this

or this

though at least one of those twin studies found quite a strong correlation between higher IQ and the economic status of the adopting family... it's be hard to tease apart the genetic and environmental effects for kids with rich genes and rich upbringings... obviously it's in the nature of things that the kids of poor parents are adopted into rich families more often than the other way around.

Most of them were inferences from the studies. There's an interesting study (Turkheimer et al 2003 I think) that compared children adopted into low and high SES families. They found that heritability was highest in the high SES families - suggesting that high SES families vary less in the 'quality' of their parenting.

Reply 66

nulli tertius

Original post by PythianLegume

I always feel that an awful lot of this sort of research rests on very few cases. In how many cases are twins adopted into families with conveniently different social characteristics shortly after birth?

Reply 67

TurboCretin

Original post by redferry

Private school kids are actually less intelligent, they have a lot more help to get their grades and with their uni applications, and this is clearly shown by the fact state schoolers do better at uni.

I'm not saying everyone at private school is stupider than everyone at state school, but that your average state schooler at uni is cleverer than your average private schooler at uni.

Cue pissy private school kids not admitting their privelage and getting mad that I pointed out people from state school have to put in far more effort to get the same grades/into uni.

Edit: On another note, very sad to see camp hill girls slipping well behind camp hill boys, we got better results the year I was there. This years girls have clearly let the side down.

State schoolers don't do better at uni, though. At least not overall.

And how do you have enough info to say that the 'average' state schooler is more intelligent? What do you mean by 'average' there?

Reply 68

gr8wizard10

I went to a state school and I'd like to believe that justified my mediocre grades.

Reply 69

nulli tertius

Original post by TurboCretin

State schoolers don't do better at uni, though. At least not overall.

The preponderance of evidence is the other way. The majority (but not all studies) show that students entering from independent schools do less well than students entering with the same grades from state schools.

Reply 70

username878045

Original post by nulli tertius

Admittedly, that Turkheimer study does only have 320 twin pairs, and most have similar numbers. It's not a huge amount, but I'd say it's large enough to draw conclusions.

Reply 71

nulli tertius

Original post by PythianLegume

Admittedly, that Turkheimer study does only have 320 twin pairs, and most have similar numbers. It's not a huge amount, but I'd say it's large enough to draw conclusions.

|I had a look at that study. Of the 320 twin pairs only 114 were identical twin pairs. I simply couldn't see any statistic at all for the number brought up in different environments. I am not sure any were. The study then went into a lot of statistical detail.

It struck me that in many ways the research was misleading because the phrase "twin study" carries an implication it is a study of the differences between twins whereas here it looks like the differences were between the socio-economic status of different pairs of twins.

Reply 72

TurboCretin

Original post by nulli tertius

Hence the caveat 'at least not overall'. Independent-schooled students get better results overall than state school students do.

Reply 73

username878045

Original post by nulli tertius

The study does look at the differences between twins, but separates them by SES of adopted families (at least on one of the measures) - the environments were simply separated by the median. I merely mentioned it as a curiosity, showing how environmental effects do obscure the heritability claim. And at most all we can say is that in our society, genetics codes for a significant amount of the variance. Interestingly, the results of the Turkheimer study and the nature of heritability as a measure would suggest that in a more equal society, genes have more influence.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 74

superdarklord

The amount of firsts achieved by state scholars at the top unis outweigh the amount of firsts awarded to private school children.

At state school, the bright must have an intrinsic desire to learn and self motivation which serves them well at uni whereas private schoolers have essentially been handed opportunities to them on a plate with less emphasis on independent learning.

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Reply 75

nulli tertius

Original post by TurboCretin

Hence the caveat 'at least not overall'. Independent-schooled students get better results overall than state school students do.

But then it simply a truism

"rich people have more money"

"people who can run faster win more 100m races"

Independent schools get better exam results and university entrance is linked to school exam performance.

Reply 76

username878045

Original post by nulli tertius

Well yes, hence the question is a foolish one. Of course privately educated people are more intelligent. It has almost nothing to do with their education, though, and is pretty much all down to the type of people who go to private schools.

Reply 77

arrow900

Original post by superdarklord

I hope you mean ratio by "amount" otherwise your point is irrelevant since there are more state school students than private school students overall.

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Reply 78

nulli tertius

Original post by PythianLegume

I appreciate what you are saying but my point is about the paucity of underpinning data. Effectively that research isn't a study of separated twins.

I wonder how many different pairs of separated twins have ever been studied and how many of those are really different environments as opposed to one kid being brought up by a coal miner in one West Virginia coal mining community and the other kid brought up by a mechanic in another West Virginia coal mining community 20 miles down the road with the researcher trying to draw profound distinctions between the socio-economic position of miners and mechanics in West Virginian coal-mining communities.