Can someone be christian/muslim and a feminist at the same time?

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StevieA
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#1
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#1
I mean both are extremely patriachal religions with very well defined gender roles : the man is the leader of the family, the church and society, the woman should obey him and all that jazz.
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Freudian Slip
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No-one cares, Stevie.
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username1258398
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I don't see why not
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StevieA
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(Original post by StrangeBanana)
I don't see why not
How do you reckon? How can you possibly reconcile the extreme patriarchal ideas with feminism?
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Freudian Slip
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#5
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(Original post by StevieA)
How do you reckon? How can you possibly reconcile the extreme patriarchal ideas with feminism?
Can you just answer, for me, once and for all: what is your fixation with gender roles and feminism, exactly?
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Novascope
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Yeah they can. If they believe parts of or all of Christianity and Islam, then that's down to them.
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StevieA
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#7
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(Original post by Novascope)
Yeah they can. If they believe parts of or all of Christianity and Islam, then that's down to them.
But the idea of man being the ''default human'' is part of the very essence of both religions, not just some debatable side issue.
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username1258398
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#8
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(Original post by StevieA)
How do you reckon? How can you possibly reconcile the extreme patriarchal ideas with feminism?
There aren't really any "extreme patriarchal ideas" in the New Testament.
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StevieA
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(Original post by Freudian Slip)
Can you just answer, for me, once and for all: what is your fixation with gender roles and feminism, exactly?
I have a degree in gender studies and the Starbucks where I work rarely gets busy so I get bored.
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StevieA
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#10
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(Original post by StrangeBanana)
There aren't really any "extreme patriarchal ideas" in the New Testament.
Really? First of of he is a man, not a woman. The son of god, not the daughter. All the apostles are men. The few women who stand out are not much more than supporting characters, the men's helpers if you will. Yes, they aren't seen as lesser humans but the roles of the genders are very clear. The churches also have very distinct roles for women who can't be priests or hold other clergy positions only reserved for men (ignoring the protestant ones who have succumbed to modern PC and are changing the rules pretty much every week).

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
Not very feminist, is it?
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username1258398
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(Original post by StevieA)
Really? First of of he is a man, not a woman. The son of god, not the daughter. All the apostles are men. The few women who stand out are not much more than supporting characters, the men's helpers if you will. Yes, they aren't seen as lesser humans but the roles of the genders are very clear. The churches also have very distinct roles for women who can't be priests or hold other clergy positions only reserved for men (ignoring the protestant ones who have succumbed to modern PC and are changing the rules pretty much every week).
Well, Jesus had to be one of the genders, so that point isn't really relevant. That's true, but the apostles weren't Jesus' only disciples. He had a whole bunch of people following him around, many of whom were women. That's not true at all: Mary (the mother of Jesus) is revered throughout Christianity (and Islam!). Church doctrine doesn't really matter; the only requirement to be Christian is to believe in Jesus.

I didn't say there were no patriarchal ideas in the New Testament at all. Sensible Christians recognise that the Bible is not the direct word of God: it was written by humans, and is thus fallible. Atheists may call this idea cherry-picking, but they really do not define who is Christian and who is not. Again, to be a Christian you only need to believe in Jesus.
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joey11223
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(Original post by StrangeBanana)
Again, to be a Christian you only need to believe in Jesus.
Well damn, real waste of trees for all those thick Bibles then, a little pamphet saying "ignore the details, just believe Jesus is Gods son (Implying God exists too of course..), he came down, did some miracles, died, came back to life because of aforementioned fact of being Gods son, then went back to heaven to be with dad. Oh and...he is technically his son, but is also him at the same time, not a literal son, but don't confuse yourself with the trinity stuff...", would suffice surely?

I mean seriously, belief in Jesus is the ONLY THING? I'd at the very least not even bother to include the OT in the Bible at all, since it's entirely irrelevant and just causes confusion (Leviticus laying down so many rules/regulations, which are now meaningless apparently), also makes the religion a target for the most ridicule, so very unhelpful stuff, especially when in the modern age most Christians now say pretty much all the key events are in fact just parables and aren't literal (Garden of Eden, creation of the world in 7 days etc).
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StevieA
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#13
(Original post by StrangeBanana)
Well, Jesus had to be one of the genders, so that point isn't really relevant. That's true, but the apostles weren't Jesus' only disciples. He had a whole bunch of people following him around, many of whom were women. That's not true at all: Mary (the mother of Jesus) is revered throughout Christianity (and Islam!). Church doctrine doesn't really matter; the only requirement to be Christian is to believe in Jesus.

I didn't say there were no patriarchal ideas in the New Testament at all. Sensible Christians recognise that the Bible is not the direct word of God: it was written by humans, and is thus fallible. Atheists may call this idea cherry-picking, but they really do not define who is Christian and who is not. Again, to be a Christian you only need to believe in Jesus.
The men are in charge at all times in all the main christian churches , whether you're talking about 1AD or 2014, there is no doubt . There is no ''she'' in the Trinity as there are no female popes or orthodox patriarchs. Men are the leaders, no if's and but's. You cannot be a christian and deny the most basic beliefs the religion is based on. As quoted, earlier ''the head of a wife is her husband''. And Mary is revered , yes. But for what? For being His mother. For being the mother and loving nurturer . Which is what women's role is supposed to be according to the bible. And I'm pretty sure that wouldn't go down too smoothly with feminists.
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Ripper-Roo
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Unlikely. At the basis of those religions women are still subordinate to man
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StevieA
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#15
(Original post by Ripper-Roo)
Unlikely. At the basis of those religions women are still subordinate to man
Precisely. I asked this because I've seen quite a few women who were raised as christians then grew up and discovered that modern values are quite different to what the bible says they should be (when talking about genders among other things) but they feel too attached to their upbringing so they try to create this cluster**** or religion and feminism that doesn't make any sense.
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Hariex
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(Original post by StevieA)
I mean both are extremely patriachal religions with very well defined gender roles : the man is the leader of the family, the church and society, the woman should obey him and all that jazz.
Christianity, yes; I don't believe that there are any defined gender roles.

Islam, from what I've read, is far more prohibiting to a woman's freedom.
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aiyshaxo
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(Original post by Hariex)
Christianity, yes; I don't believe that there are any defined gender roles.

Islam, from what I've read, is far more prohibiting to a woman's freedom.
You obviously haven't read enough.


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StevieA
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#18
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#18
(Original post by aiyshaxo)
You obviously haven't read enough.


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Aïcha, Aïcha écoute-moi,
Aïcha, Aïcha t'en vas pas...


How do you see men and women and their roles in Islam? I always read about how muslim women just go along with it because they've been brainwashed from birth or out of fear buttttttt not buying it, not all of it anyway. Plus most muslim converts in the west are women.
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LJStudent
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shut up meg
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MidnightDream
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#20
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#20
(Original post by StevieA)
I mean both are extremely patriachal religions with very well defined gender roles : the man is the leader of the family, the church and society, the woman should obey him and all that jazz.
You have clearly not met my mother :rofl:
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