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Why Is The West Against UN Investigation Into Israeli War Crimes? Watch

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    The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) has agreed to launch an international inquiry into violations that may have been committed during Israel's latest military offensive in Gaza.

    http://www.theguardian.com/global/2014/jul/23/un-high-commissioner-navi-pillay-war-crimes-israel




    Obviously it was expected that the United States would reject anything which would make their beloved Israel look bad, but why do the other Western countries (e.g. UK, France, Germany) choose to abstain a resolution which will simply investigate human rights violation? I'm fairly confident that if it was a country besides Israel that were being investigated then the majority of the Western countries would be voting Yes.

    Does this latest display of lack of backbone from the Western Countries just re-iterate who actually runs things around here?
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    Nobody wants to be seen going against the USA. Abstaining is the best way to avoid this situation.

    The sad thing is many people support this action in the USA and other western nations, but politicians ignore them.
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    It's because not many major world powers have enough courage to go against the USA. The UK especially as it seems to value the "special relationship" more than any other international relationship even when it isn't beneficial to us.

    It makes the west look incredibly hypocritical when you consider the uproar when factions in Syria were suspected of war crimes and America and Britain got very close to engaging in another military conflict, and now when Israel, a longtime ally of the USA, is suspected of numerous war crimes, the US actively votes against any UN resolutions that would adversely affect their relationship with Israel.
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    An investigation would have to find that Israel were responsible for deliberate, indiscriminate killing of civilians. Most observers of this conflict see and hear of dead women and children and immediately assume it must be illegal. As it happens, the majority of Irsaeli activity is not technically illegal or in violation of the Geneva convention.

    • Articles 51[6] and 54 outlaw indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations, and destruction of food, water, and other materials needed for survival. Indiscriminate attacks include directly attacking civilian *(non-military) targets, but also using technology such as biological weapons, nuclear weapons and land mines, whose scope of destruction cannot be limited.[5] A total war that does not distinguish between civilian and military targets is considered a war crime.
    This conflict is pretty unique in terms of the geography and infastructure of the nations at arms. Within Gaza there is very little in the way of military or political infastructure. This means Israel doesn't really have barracks, launch pads, weapons or ammunition stores to fire upon. It also means Hamas have no where but civillian locations to store and launch their weapons from. Hamas launch from civillian locations and Israel fire back at that area. Trouble is their weapons are not precise enough to hit the exact spot the launch occured at and even if they could, the Hamas militants would be gone by the time they struck. As a result, Israel are attacking military targets but killing mostly civillians. By the Geneva convention, this is not illegal. Most Israeli remote strikes (be that rockets or helicopter/jet strikes) within the west bank have actually been Hamas facilities. Most Palestinian deaths to land forces within the west bank have been at violent protests and arguably in retaliation/defense - These need investigating.

    (Israel have been able to demonstrate that targets fired upon, which resulted in civillian casualties were, beyond reasonable doubt, of military origin (With footage of rocket launches from the area prior to attacks). This is not the case for every single attack they have launched though.)

    The greatest issues with investigating Israels' actions during Operation Protective Edge (the offensive instiagted in May) are; firstly, that there has been so many strikes and over a period of months now. This makes it difficult to accurately investigate the nature of each one. Especially as the targets are widespread and as it stands, no where in Gaza is safe to conduct any sort of investigation what so ever and the west bank is highly unstable. Israel have, however, demonstrated at least a few of their attacks have been justified by the standards set by international law. It also does not make sense that Israel would want to deliberately target civillians as they gain nothing from it but a tarnished reputation with the UN and only strengthen the resolve of anti-Israeli movements in Palestine and elsewhere. I would suggest these are the reasons the US voted no. If anything, the more Palestinians that Israel are responsible for killing, the greater the support Hamas can muster against them.

    Personally I believe Hamas are willing to sacrafice as many Palestinians as it takes to win a propaganda war against Israel, which they currently are. Hamas could launch from unpopulated areas but they don't. They have actively encouraged Palestinians to remain in areas where Israeli leaflets have been distributed to inform the residents that area will come under attack if rockets continue. Israel have advised Palestinians to evacuate, Hamas have told them to stay. Then when Israel attacks and innocents die, Hamas point the finger at Israel. Further to this, Israel have been deploying aerially detonating shells which rain down harmless pellets on roof tops, generating noise to indicate to evacuate the area before an imminent strike (refer to video below).



    Another issue with investigating Israel, is it's somewhat biased to investigate Israel without giving due, equal attention to investigating Hamas activity. It is illegal to use human shields in war. This is essentially what Hamas are doing in Gaza especially by telling civillians to not leave and in some cases not allowing them to leave, when Israel forewarns of an attack. So Hamas should be investigated for that, as Israel should be investigated for some of the less explicable Palestinian deaths, notably the 4 boys on the beach (among others).

    Finally and probably the most important reason to the US is that by voting yes, they would have potentially have implicated themselves. I beleive this is a key reason behind the UK etc abstaining. Everyone knows the US have been arming Israel and by voting yes these nations would knowingly put the US under scrutiny but rather than vote no it is best for them to remain neutral and abstain. If this investigation went far enough it could discover the US were knowingly arming a regime involved in unlawful killing of civilians. Bad, bad PR for the US.


    - To clarify, I support neither side in this conflict. I think both sides are cuplable for the dispicable mess that is going on in that part of the world. I think Israel are less so but I am definitely skeptical about some of their actions.

    - If anything I would like to pin this entire thing on organised religion. Conflicts like this are the greatest contribution religion has made to man kind and will probably be the end of us when ever that may be.
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    Because they'd be found guilty??
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    Partly because there is a very sophisticated pro-Israel agenda in the West, there are strong supporters of Israel at the top of nearly everywhere you look, the media in particularly. These people have the power the make or break many careers. Such is the extent of this, it is uncommon to see politicians particularly in the US pledging seemingly unconditional support and loyalty to what is essentially, just another foreign country. Just look at how the US government spend billions of dollars of US taxpayers money to pay for the Iron Dome anti-rocket system in Israel.
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    It is not so much the West, it is the U.S.A. They block anything regarding Israel with their veto powers. The U.N is pretty much useless, in regards to its ability to intervene in military situations. This is because of the personal interests of the Nation's with veto powers.
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) has agreed to launch an international inquiry into violations that may have been committed during Israel's latest military offensive in Gaza.

    http://www.theguardian.com/global/2014/jul/23/un-high-commissioner-navi-pillay-war-crimes-israel




    Obviously it was expected that the United States would reject anything which would make their beloved Israel look bad, but why do the other Western countries (e.g. UK, France, Germany) choose to abstain a resolution which will simply investigate human rights violation? I'm fairly confident that if it was a country besides Israel that were being investigated then the majority of the Western countries would be voting Yes.

    Does this latest display of lack of backbone from the Western Countries just re-iterate who actually runs things around here?
    Because the UN are hopelessly inept; Compiled of boring middle aged prigs who don't have the balls or the intellect to deal with countries who are literally cannibalizing each other
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    (Original post by Jack93o)
    Partly because there is a very sophisticated pro-Israel agenda in the West, there are strong supporters of Israel at the top of nearly everywhere you look, the media in particularly. These people have the power the make or break many careers. Such is the extent of this, it is uncommon to see politicians particularly in the US pledging seemingly unconditional support and loyalty to what is essentially, just another foreign country. Just look at how the US government spend billions of dollars of US taxpayers money to pay for the Iron Dome anti-rocket system in Israel.

    Western media is currently quite anti-israel, Sky news in particular. Reporting only from within Gaza, showing footage of dead children and distraught families without discussing the politics or cause of the conflict. Palestinians and Israelis need to stop dying, but reports like like "Death toll up to 800 Palestinians as Israel massacre continues" is deliberately misleading and excuses Hamas of all responsibility. While also showing conspicuous disregard for the 36 dead Israelis.

    All of these people would still be alive if Hamas and Israel could swallow their pride and put aside ridiculous, ancient ideals neither welcome nor relevant in this day and age.
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    (Original post by Amphiprion)
    An investigation would have to find that Israel were responsible for deliberate, indiscriminate killing of civilians. Most observers of this conflict see and hear of dead women and children and immediately assume it must be illegal. As it happens, the majority of Irsaeli activity is not technically illegal or in violation of the Geneva convention.



    This conflict is pretty unique in terms of the geography and infastructure of the nations at arms. Within Gaza there is very little in the way of military or political infastructure. This means Israel doesn't really have barracks, launch pads, weapons or ammunition stores to fire upon. It also means Hamas have no where but civillian locations to store and launch their weapons from. Hamas launch from civillian locations and Israel fire back at that area. Trouble is their weapons are not precise enough to hit the exact spot the launch occured at and even if they could, the Hamas militants would be gone by the time they struck. As a result, Israel are attacking military targets but killing mostly civillians. By the Geneva convention, this is not illegal. Most Israeli remote strikes (be that rockets or helicopter/jet strikes) within the west bank have actually been Hamas facilities. Most Palestinian deaths to land forces within the west bank have been at violent protests and arguably in retaliation/defense - These need investigating.

    (Israel have been able to demonstrate that targets fired upon, which resulted in civillian casualties were, beyond reasonable doubt, of military origin (With footage of rocket launches from the area prior to attacks). This is not the case for every single attack they have launched though.)

    The greatest issues with investigating Israels' actions during Operation Protective Edge (the offensive instiagted in May) are; firstly, that there has been so many strikes and over a period of months now. This makes it difficult to accurately investigate the nature of each one. Especially as the targets are widespread and as it stands, no where in Gaza is safe to conduct any sort of investigation what so ever and the west bank is highly unstable. Israel have, however, demonstrated at least a few of their attacks have been justified by the standards set by international law. It also does not make sense that Israel would want to deliberately target civillians as they gain nothing from it but a tarnished reputation with the UN and only strengthen the resolve of anti-Israeli movements in Palestine and elsewhere. I would suggest these are the reasons the US voted no. If anything, the more Palestinians that Israel are responsible for killing, the greater the support Hamas can muster against them.

    Personally I believe Hamas are willing to sacrafice as many Palestinians as it takes to win a propaganda war against Israel, which they currently are. Hamas could launch from unpopulated areas but they don't. They have actively encouraged Palestinians to remain in areas where Israeli leaflets have been distributed to inform the residents that area will come under attack if rockets continue. Israel have advised Palestinians to evacuate, Hamas have told them to stay. Then when Israel attacks and innocents die, Hamas point the finger at Israel. Further to this, Israel have been deploying aerially detonating shells which rain down harmless pellets on roof tops, generating noise to indicate to evacuate the area before an imminent strike (refer to video below).



    Another issue with investigating Israel, is it's somewhat biased to investigate Israel without giving due, equal attention to investigating Hamas activity. It is illegal to use human shields in war. This is essentially what Hamas are doing in Gaza especially by telling civillians to not leave and in some cases not allowing them to leave, when Israel forewarns of an attack. So Hamas should be investigated for that, as Israel should be investigated for some of the less explicable Palestinian deaths, notably the 4 boys on the beach (among others).

    Finally and probably the most important reason to the US is that by voting yes, they would have potentially have implicated themselves. I beleive this is a key reason behind the UK etc abstaining. Everyone knows the US have been arming Israel and by voting yes these nations would knowingly put the US under scrutiny but rather than vote no it is best for them to remain neutral and abstain. If this investigation went far enough it could discover the US were knowingly arming a regime involved in unlawful killing of civilians. Bad, bad PR for the US.


    - To clarify, I support neither side in this conflict. I think both sides are cuplable for the dispicable mess that is going on in that part of the world. I think Israel are less so but I am definitely skeptical about some of their actions.

    - If anything I would like to pin this entire thing on organised religion. Conflicts like this are the greatest contribution religion has made to man kind and will probably be the end of us when ever that may be.
    One of the best posts I've ever read on TSR, informative and well argued, thanks a lot.
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    (Original post by broscience123)
    Does this latest display of lack of backbone from the Western Countries just re-iterate who actually runs things around here?
    Many European countries have committed war crimes in the past, including the UK. The Muslim Arab Empire of the past, by the way, has also committed war crimes, as well as the Ottoman Empire. The USA has also committed war crimes. Russia has as well. China and Japan has as well.

    Due to the extensive mass of war crimes committed by nations and empires of the past and present around the world, war crimes tend to only be punished if the superpowers desire to do so. Hence, some of the war crimes of Nazi Germany were punished (though not all). The concentration camps motivated American soldiers to push for the punishment of the Nazis guilty of genociding Jewish people.
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    (Original post by Jack93o)
    Partly because there is a very sophisticated pro-Israel agenda in the West, there are strong supporters of Israel at the top of nearly everywhere you look, the media in particularly. These people have the power the make or break many careers. Such is the extent of this, it is uncommon to see politicians particularly in the US pledging seemingly unconditional support and loyalty to what is essentially, just another foreign country. Just look at how the US government spend billions of dollars of US taxpayers money to pay for the Iron Dome anti-rocket system in Israel.
    The USA and Israel have family ties. While the USA is not a Jewish state, there are many Jewish people who call the USA their home. Many have relatives in the only Jewish state: Israel.

    The USA also has many Arab citizens and citizens from all around the world. However, due to the horrors the American soldiers found in the Nazi concentration camps, the suffering of the Jewish people in Europe cemented the sympathy the English-American people in general have for the Jewish people and for them to have their own state in the land of their forefathers.

    Arabs already have many Arab states, some of those conquered by the Arab Muslims long time ago, after Muhammad's death.

    As an American Christian, I have grown up hearing about King David conquering Israel's enemies, including the Philistines. Incidentally, Palestine is the Roman name for the land, taken from the Philistines. While I personally think obeying Jesus' commands to love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37) is the best, many people do continue to follow the idea of fighting, which King David did. (King David was of course before Jesus, not after Jesus and thus not under Jesus' command to love enemies.) King David fought Israel's enemies and conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites. King Solomon made Jerusalem the holy city for the Jewish people by building the Temple God commanded him to build in the city.

    The USA also contains many Christians, though the numbers of Christians are indeed dwindling. Many Christians believe Jesus Christ will return to rescue a regenerated Israel from their enemies.

    Israel has already been destroyed and regenerated 2 times now:
    1. Destruction by the Babylonians; regenerated beginning under the allowance of King Cyrus the Great of Persia.
    2. Destruction by the Romans; regenerated with the help of the UK and the USA in 1948.

    Most Jewish people in Israel, as well as Christians and Jewish people in the USA, hope and pray that Israel is not destroyed a third time, this time by the Muslims.
 
 
 
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