Self Defence question

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#21
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#21
(Original post by goldenfish)
Jeet kune Do is probably the best fighting art to learn.
Teaches you to not commit yourself to any one form e.g. Boxing stances / wing chun stance(s) but rather learn many different forms to be able to counter whatever your opponent uses effectively.
Yeah, because everyone has time to six martial arts.
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goldenfish
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#22
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(Original post by Clip)
Yeah, because everyone has time to six martial arts.
You don't need to become a master at a martial art to learn to use its stance effectively. Stance training is typically the most basic training.
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(Original post by goldenfish)
You don't need to become a master at a martial art to learn to use its stance effectively. Stance training is typically the most basic training.
That sounds like a load of nonsense to me. I can't recall hardly any time ever devoted to that kind of thing and I've done a little bit of training. Not JKD but I don't see what the big deal is

My understanding is that almost no one teaches "JKD" and rather teaches a Filipono derivation as virtually no students will ever progress to the stage where there is any point doing anything else.
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biggronn
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#24
(Original post by Tomsta)
I know this is the most clichéd question in all of martial arts, but i'm trying to find a self defence system / martial art that could be effectively used in your average fight in a bar or street

I've had 2 years of Aikido training and although i can see the benefits of it i notice a rather fatal flaw in the system, it requires both parties to have knowledge of the martial art for it to be used effectively, now of course this is very unlikley to occur, so i've stopped doing Aikido for a while, i still use some of the basic hip movements and basic blocks/grapples etc.

What i'm looking for is a style that can be used one a opponent who as no training in any form of fighting (as that's what the majority of people on the street are)

Based on my research i've narrowed it down to the following three

Krav Maga
Boxing
Wing Chun

If anyone has any expierance in these please share your thoughts
krav maga...wing chun...tai chi...muay thai << do a mixture....wing chun nor krav maga is perfect...pick 3 and mix em up

boxing leaves you vulnerable...just type in wing chun vs boxing on the tube and you will see...i do wing chun...tai chi and krav maga and ive served many boxers 6'0+ and im only 5'9...bjj vs boxing...bjj would destroy your average boxer...boxers cant deal with floor battles nor do they use their legs...

on the street...bjj is not advised cuz you dont wanna be on the floor...a friend could see your opponent and smash on your head

depends on your stature too...if youre 6'5 and 300lbs you could add in wrestling in there
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#25
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#25
(Original post by goldenfish)
Jeet kune Do is probably the best fighting art to learn.
Teaches you to not commit yourself to any one form e.g. Boxing stances / wing chun stance(s) but rather learn many different forms to be able to counter whatever your opponent uses effectively.
Thats the dumbest thing i ever heard, if you want everything then go for MMA
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#26
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#26
(Original post by biggronn)
krav maga...wing chun...tai chi...muay thai << do a mixture....wing chun nor krav maga is perfect...pick 3 and mix em up

boxing leaves you vulnerable...just type in wing chun vs boxing on the tube and you will see...i do wing chun...tai chi and krav maga and ive served many boxers 6'0+ and im only 5'9...bjj vs boxing...bjj would destroy your average boxer...boxers cant deal with floor battles nor do they use their legs...

on the street...bjj is not advised cuz you dont wanna be on the floor...a friend could see your opponent and smash on your head

depends on your stature too...if youre 6'5 and 300lbs you could add in wrestling in there
Im a skinny bean, 5ft 9" weighing 8 1/2 st ... 21 yrs old
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iAmanze
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#27
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Krav Maga isby far the best for street/bar fights. Nothing will beat it, ignore everyone else, they don't know what they are talking about.
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goldenfish
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#28
(Original post by Clip)
That sounds like a load of nonsense to me. I can't recall hardly any time ever devoted to that kind of thing and I've done a little bit of training. Not JKD but I don't see what the big deal is

My understanding is that almost no one teaches "JKD" and rather teaches a Filipono derivation as virtually no students will ever progress to the stage where there is any point doing anything else.
MMA is derived from the concepts of JDK. If you haven't done JKD then you can't really judge it. Bruce Lee took what he found was most efficient from many different things e.g. Boxing / fencing / wing chun etc and put them together to make it as efficient as possible in a real life fight situation as possible where from adrenalin etc you might not be able to rely on a lot of the complex movements you learn in a lot of martial arts.
From his understanding he thought most martial arts he learned weren't very good for street fight situations since they where to 'fancy'.
It's hard to explain, read Tao of Jeet Kune Do if you want to understand.
But it's also the reason that there aren't many (if any) recorded fights of Bruce Lee since he didn't believe that fighting has rules and the attitude of JDK is do whatever you have to do to win a fight.

It is quite hard to find people that teach it but imo it's worth the hard search. There's generally 2 types of schools that do teach it. One where they teach it exactly as Bruce Lee taught it himself and another where the teachers would expand on what Bruce Lee built, because in his own words "JDK isn't a martial art, its just a philosophy."

Sorry this might have become a ramble but I'm passionate about it
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biggronn
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#29
(Original post by Tomsta)
Im a skinny bean, 5ft 9" weighing 8 1/2 st ... 21 yrs old
thats cool...what you also wanna do is pack some size, strength and width (aim for 65-70 kg while maintaining sufficient flexibility and speed)...no fighting style is of use if you have no strength...do some weights but stick to strength workouts (squats...deadlifts..bench press...pullups etc)...using a wing chun dummy or punching a tree lightly with a towel if you dont have one helps condition your bones to become hard...even walking while your kneeling for 20 mins with a heavy barbell on your shoulders boosts strength

id go with the three i picked or any similar styles...pick one for the speed/movement...one for the punches/blocks/submissions and one for something else you find important in fights

most people try to grab you by your legs and slam you or punch towards your face <<< the three i named can counter-combat those while you dont have to work up a sweat compared to bjj...and the fight will be over in less than a min
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#30
(Original post by goldenfish)
MMA is derived from the concepts of JDK. If you haven't done JKD then you can't really judge it. Bruce Lee took what he found was most efficient from many different things e.g. Boxing / fencing / wing chun etc and put them together to make it as efficient as possible in a real life fight situation as possible where from adrenalin etc you might not be able to rely on a lot of the complex movements you learn in a lot of martial arts.
From his understanding he thought most martial arts he learned weren't very good for street fight situations since they where to 'fancy'.
It's hard to explain, read Tao of Jeet Kune Do if you want to understand.
But it's also the reason that there aren't many (if any) recorded fights of Bruce Lee since he didn't believe that fighting has rules and the attitude of JDK is do whatever you have to do to win a fight.

It is quite hard to find people that teach it but imo it's worth the hard search. There's generally 2 types of schools that do teach it. One where they teach it exactly as Bruce Lee taught it himself and another where the teachers would expand on what Bruce Lee built, because in his own words "JDK isn't a martial art, its just a philosophy."

Sorry this might have become a ramble but I'm passionate about it
You're so passionate about it that you consistently call it the wrong thing?

Bruce Lee generally was full of nonsense, and he's as dead as fried chicken.

How hard is it to say "Do what works for you"?

It's also a complete rock-paper-scissors fallacy that is no different from the kind of hocus-pocus you used to get in 1970s Jackie Chan films where the rat style of kung fu would always beat the caterpillar style. It's rubbish.

Bruce Lee says "a combination of styles, no fixed stances etc is better than one style"

That's rubbish and from the dustbin of history that is concerned only with TCMAs.

Forget what we call "martial arts" and concentrate on what we call "actual fighting" or "combat sport". In boxing, do you see any fixed stances? No - just your basic guard. What about MT? What about Judo? None of these have the kind of fixed stance BL is talking about, and all predate JKD by at least 100 years.

The biggest fallacy is inherent to the pattern of martial arts training that most people can follow. Most people devote a few hours a week to training. That's all they can do. Bruce Lee knew this as he was running a Kung fu school. Only professional martial artists, people in sports, the unemployed and similar could afford to devote the kind of time that is necessary to make a "JKD concepts" type thing work. It's basically a brand name for cross-training.

And for most people, cross-training is a joke. Most people cannot devote the time to competently absorb the tenets of one "style", let alone mix-and-match them.

I'll give you an example - you cannot simply "absorb what is useful" with regard to grappling. That's utter nonsense. Let's say Mr. JKD noob wants to learn to do an RNC. The movements of this can be taught in a few minutes, the combinations and counters in a day.

But this is useless knowledge. There is no point in someone knowing how to do the physical motions of an RNC if they can't wrestle / grapple in the first place. Unless you're going to hide in the bushes and leap out on defenceless school girls, you don't know anything of any value. You can't defend yourself, control your own body, control an opponent, transition, take his back and then perform the RNC. You need hundreds of hours on the mats.

Let me ask you this - in BJJ, what exactly is not useful that a JKD student would "reject"? Nothing. In Judo - except for the (very limited) kata and a bit of bowing, what would the JKD student reject? What about boxing? There's nothing to reject.

For the very tiny minority of hardcore enthusiasts with time and means, the idea of JKD is just about workable - but you are not telling them anything that they didn't already know, or that wasn't already in practice. For everyone else, it's a recipe for disaster.
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#31
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#31
(Original post by biggronn)
thats cool...what you also wanna do is pack some size, strength and width (aim for 65-70 kg while maintaining sufficient flexibility and speed)...no fighting style is of use if you have no strength...do some weights but stick to strength workouts (squats...deadlifts..bench press...pullups etc)...using a wing chun dummy or punching a tree lightly with a towel if you dont have one helps condition your bones to become hard...even walking while your kneeling for 20 mins with a heavy barbell on your shoulders boosts strength

id go with the three i picked or any similar styles...pick one for the speed/movement...one for the punches/blocks/submissions and one for something else you find important in fights

most people try to grab you by your legs and slam you or punch towards your face <<< the three i named can counter-combat those while you dont have to work up a sweat compared to bjj...and the fight will be over in less than a min
i've tried to bulk up before i can't metab is too high
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Tomsta)
i've tried to bulk up before i can't metab is too high
get a mass gainer.....with 1000 calories or so....eat enough..know what youre doing in the gym...im just like you...i put on mass in no time...
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#33
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#33
(Original post by biggronn)
get a mass gainer.....with 1000 calories or so....eat enough..know what youre doing in the gym...im just like you...i put on mass in no time...
I have no time for gym, i work 9-5:30; Mon- Fri
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Tomsta)
I have no time for gym, i work 9-5:30; Mon- Fri
im sure its at least an hour three days in your week
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I teach aikido and I think your understanding of it is a little skewed. To practise aikido, both tori and uke need to understand what they're doing, definitely. But what you learn can be applied to people who don't know what's happening also, just less safely. I've had a couple of times where I've done this myself (once a kotegaeshi, once nikyo) to people who had no idea about aikido or martial arts (and weren't expecting it). Thankfully I've not had to use it in real violence, but part of aikido is tempering your ego, raising your awareness, etc., in order to avoid violence altogether.

I wouldn't recommend aikido for learning how to 'street fight'. It's too much of a roundabout process for that. Something that gets right to the point, like boxing and krav maga, would be better. But these both have their own weaknesses. Krav maga was specifically designed to be lethal and cause damage with maximum efficiency. It is not the kind of martial art that keeps you out of prison, since half of your muscle memory will be made up of techniques that have no restraint. As for boxing, that's great and you'll learn how to punch and take hits really well, but that goes out the window when you're inevitably grabbed, or they start kicking, or the boxing paradigm is disturbed by any of the million-and-one chaotic things that could happen in a fight.

Not to mention learning how to do well in bar fights is a collossal waste of time anyway. The average person gets in, what, 5 fights in their life, maximum? And those fights, being generous, last about a minute. That's years of training, thousands of pounds, and likely several injuries, to hopefully do better in those 5 minutes that probably won't happen if you just become better at avoiding violence than the average person. Truth is, even if you're really good, if someone wants to stab you up, they probably can. Real violence is just too chaotic. There's not much value to be had, in my opinion, in taking up a martial art to be able to handle yourself on the street.
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#36
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#36
(Original post by biggronn)
im sure its at least an hour three days in your week
Get home at 7:30pm, by the time i've got my stuff ready for the next day it's 8:30pm and i have to be in bed at 10pm (i have to be up at 5:30am)
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Tomsta)
Get home at 7:30pm, by the time i've got my stuff ready for the next day it's 8:30pm and i have to be in bed at 10pm (i have to be up at 5:30am)
weekend?
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Tomsta)
I know this is the most clichéd question in all of martial arts, but i'm trying to find a self defence system / martial art that could be effectively used in your average fight in a bar or street

I've had 2 years of Aikido training and although i can see the benefits of it i notice a rather fatal flaw in the system, it requires both parties to have knowledge of the martial art for it to be used effectively, now of course this is very unlikley to occur, so i've stopped doing Aikido for a while, i still use some of the basic hip movements and basic blocks/grapples etc.

What i'm looking for is a style that can be used one a opponent who as no training in any form of fighting (as that's what the majority of people on the street are)

Based on my research i've narrowed it down to the following three

Krav Maga
Boxing
Wing Chun

If anyone has any expierance in these please share your thoughts
Boxing

heres why
you go to israel and learn krav maga. they hurt you.
you go to china to learn wing chun. they hurt you

you go to learn krav maga in the uk. they don't hurt you.
you go to learn wing chun in the uk. they don't hurt you.

training for real combat is ruff business.

Joe the IT technician is afraid of being mugged. he wants to be prepared for danger.
he goes to a karate class. its full of guys like him. the instructor tells them all to never get in a fight. he tells them because its the warrior code. but really its because the instructor knows that if any of these guys came across a street brawler they would get their ass handed to them. they are paying the instructor to feel good.
so the instructor teaches them moves. its all gentle, respectful, nice and you get nice belts to show your progress. you feel like your achieving something.

if the instructor was really teaching you to fight. there would be no belts. its just ability that counts. it will be rough. he will coach you on your own personal technique.

but. people who are afraid of violence are gonna be spooked by a martial arts gym thats violent. theyre gonna wanna leave.

and they dont want you to leave. they want customers.

so most martial arts in the uk are just about making money and pleasing the customer.

and the martial arts instructors that are really good and teach the real deal stuff, are often very expensive. or don't have a dojo/gym. a lot of the really deadly guys just give travelling lectures and workshops.

if you were in china i'd say learn wing chun.
if you were in japan i'd say learn karate.
if you were in thailand i'd say learn muay thai.

boxing is our martial art.

its in every city in every town.

you will get good instruction cheap.

boxing can get rough. so it will teach you to fight.

the great thing about boxing is it is very simple but repetitive. this same repetition builds muscle memory. you ever notice how boxers can be half unconscious and still fighting?
thats what makes boxing so great. you can fight out of instinct. you react before your brain has time to catch up. which is great if you've been drinking in a bar and some guy punches you in the back of the head. because while your brain is still tryna figure out what just happened. your body has allready gone into boxing mode and you may find your self bobbing out the way without even thinking.

you cannot do that with complex martial arts.
well you can. but the amount of hours you have to put in to remember those moves out of muscle memory and instinct would take you a long time. you would have to basically be in the dojo full time and work at it like a job.


something i would suggest with boxing is finding a nice rough house boxing gym.

a place where you feel intimidated.
why? you train better and your body starts to develop to accommodate the environment.
a lot of body builders have noticed how guys in prison can get similar hench bodies like them by eating nothing but crap and only working out on weights an hour every day. the reason for this is the environment. lots of testosterone, aggression and fear in the air. your body prepares for a more barbaric place.

on top of that if you pick a rough house gym the guys who go there will be thugs or at least guys who get into fights. so you will get way more out of your pad sessions and sparring than you wold by fighting Ian the League of Legends Pro. they will give you free tips that they have picked up in street fights.

you would find a rough house gym in the same way you would find a rough pub.

just turn up and you'll get the vibe.



if you can't do boxing.

krav maga.
find an instructor thats israeli and has a class full of jewish people.
there should be a sort of drive for the instructor to want to train "his people" properly so that there is "never again" another holocaust. and if sum1 should try that certainly THESE jews are not gonna go without a fight.
basically the instructor will ACTUALLY CARE about making them good at defending themselves.

a lot of guys don't. they just "build confidence" and teach you stupid stuff like "he who throws the first punch loses". obviously the've never been on a night out on broad street.
no. punch someone first. if they are threatning your personal safety and are close enough to hit you. HIT THEM.

wing chun is great but its harder to find than krav maga.
and certified instructors are even harder to find.
i imagine a really good wing chun instructor that is based in the uk will probably charge out the ass. personally i would recommend Jeet kune Do over wing chun. bruce lee was taught wing chun and he invented Jeet Kune Do. it was meant to be more practical and less "flowery" his words. he found that when fighting much larger american opponents wing chun sucked. it worked fine on guys your same size. so he made JKD to be basically, Wing Chun meets western street fighting. now. i have heard people argue. that wing chun is flawess and ancient and that bruce lee just wasnt trained long enough in wing chun.

well. that may be the case. but. are you gonna train more at wing chun than bruce lee? probably not if you plan on like... working a job as well as doing martial arts.
so yea i'd recommend JKD. its wing chun adapted to a western environment. its meant to be taught quickly without the cult induction methods of wing chun.

also boxing is great for fighting in bars not just due to the instinct and fighting better with alcohol in your system. but also you can fight in close quarters easily. yes wing chuns rapid punching is suited for alley ways. but wing chun requires much more movement and room to be effective on multiple opponents. boxing you can plow into a guy and then his mate whos stood to a 90 degree angle on your side can swing at you and you'll duck due to the boxing. wing chun is so forward and less about bobbing and weaving that you'll more likely be knocked.

so to recap.

1st choice. boxing
2nd choice. krav maga
3rd choice. wing chun (although i really would recommend JKD over wing chun)

but yea your an akido guy so you'll be a smart fighter. first thing id suggest is "getting your wind up" which is just improving on your cardio. doing long runs. sit ups. push ups. squats.
that will prepare you more for the boxing training.

but yea the body conditioning in boxing is awesome.
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goldenfish
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Clip)
You're so passionate about it that you consistently call it the wrong thing?

Bruce Lee generally was full of nonsense, and he's as dead as fried chicken.

How hard is it to say "Do what works for you"?

It's also a complete rock-paper-scissors fallacy that is no different from the kind of hocus-pocus you used to get in 1970s Jackie Chan films where the rat style of kung fu would always beat the caterpillar style. It's rubbish.

Bruce Lee says "a combination of styles, no fixed stances etc is better than one style"

That's rubbish and from the dustbin of history that is concerned only with TCMAs.

Forget what we call "martial arts" and concentrate on what we call "actual fighting" or "combat sport". In boxing, do you see any fixed stances? No - just your basic guard. What about MT? What about Judo? None of these have the kind of fixed stance BL is talking about, and all predate JKD by at least 100 years.

The biggest fallacy is inherent to the pattern of martial arts training that most people can follow. Most people devote a few hours a week to training. That's all they can do. Bruce Lee knew this as he was running a Kung fu school. Only professional martial artists, people in sports, the unemployed and similar could afford to devote the kind of time that is necessary to make a "JKD concepts" type thing work. It's basically a brand name for cross-training.

And for most people, cross-training is a joke. Most people cannot devote the time to competently absorb the tenets of one "style", let alone mix-and-match them.

I'll give you an example - you cannot simply "absorb what is useful" with regard to grappling. That's utter nonsense. Let's say Mr. JKD noob wants to learn to do an RNC. The movements of this can be taught in a few minutes, the combinations and counters in a day.

But this is useless knowledge. There is no point in someone knowing how to do the physical motions of an RNC if they can't wrestle / grapple in the first place. Unless you're going to hide in the bushes and leap out on defenceless school girls, you don't know anything of any value. You can't defend yourself, control your own body, control an opponent, transition, take his back and then perform the RNC. You need hundreds of hours on the mats.

Let me ask you this - in BJJ, what exactly is not useful that a JKD student would "reject"? Nothing. In Judo - except for the (very limited) kata and a bit of bowing, what would the JKD student reject? What about boxing? There's nothing to reject.

For the very tiny minority of hardcore enthusiasts with time and means, the idea of JKD is just about workable - but you are not telling them anything that they didn't already know, or that wasn't already in practice. For everyone else, it's a recipe for disaster.

Im 100% sure that Bruce Lee - a world renowned expert by boxers / martial artists / MMA fighters was and always will be a better fighter, martial artist and source of information regarding fitness and fighting then you. So I'll stick to using the information from a world renowned fighter, who was decades ahead of his time in fitness and conditioning - as well as an expert in fighting, which you most likely are not. And you keep thinking that you're more knowledgeable then the father of MMA.

JKD wasn't and will never be a martial art. It's a fighting philosophy.

And to your "Most people cannot devote the time to competently absorb the tenets of one "style"". That doesn't change the fact it's the best there is, nothing good is easy, you have to put in thousands of hours into any skill to become good at it, especially martial arts where you have to essentially change your instinct reactions e.g to react automatically to a punch by doing a specific counter.
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#40
(Original post by goldenfish)
Im 100% sure that Bruce Lee - a world renowned expert by boxers / martial artists / MMA fighters was and always will be a better fighter, martial artist and source of information regarding fitness and fighting then you. So I'll stick to using the information from a world renowned fighter, who was decades ahead of his time in fitness and conditioning - as well as an expert in fighting, which you most likely are not. And you keep thinking that you're more knowledgeable then the father of MMA.

JKD wasn't and will never be a martial art. It's a fighting philosophy.

And to your "Most people cannot devote the time to competently absorb the tenets of one "style"". That doesn't change the fact it's the best there is, nothing good is easy, you have to put in thousands of hours into any skill to become good at it, especially martial arts where you have to essentially change your instinct reactions e.g to react automatically to a punch by doing a specific counter.
The very fact that you consider Bruce Lee to be the father of MMA says it all. You do not have the slightest clue.

MMA has existed since antiquity. What we now see as MMA is far more closely related to Pankration than to JKD.

Pankration was one of the original Hellenic Olympic events, and was a combination of boxing and wrestling with rules extremely similar to the original Gracie UFC.

Was Bruce Lee around in the 7th Century BC? If not, how can he be the "father of MMA"? if they were doing it in Ancient Greece?

There have been Vale Tudo fights in Brazil for generations, with absolutely no reference to Bruce Lee or JKD. Similarly in Japan. The derivation of MMA is from VT in Brazil and Shootfighting in Japan - not from anything to do with Bruce Lee.

My contention is not that JKD philosophy is inherently untrue or fraudulent (like the vast majority of everything in martial arts); but rather that it is of very little value.

Firstly, there was no innovation. There was nothing clever in saying "Don't learn just one style - do what works for you" - because people had been doing that for hundreds of years.

Secondly, JKD has little practical modern application. BL was a martial arts teacher in America. He ran a kung fu school. He knew exactly what the pattern of learning was. Yet he promoted a training philosophy that is inaccessible to the overwhelming majority of students. This makes JKD in a sense no better than Northern Shaolin Five Animals Fist or whatever - where some old dude will tell you that you need to train for 20 years before you can win a fight. If you need to be able to box and wrestle and fence and do Muay Thai in order to have your own brand of JKD - well thank you very much, I could have done one of those and been able to fight five years ago.

You don't address anything that I've said except to shout "Bruce Lee is the best".

Tell me simply - if a core JKD principle is "absorb what is useful - reject that which is not"; let's say I'm starting out on my own personal JKD (as that's what it's all about) - what is there in Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that I could possibly reject?
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