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    M276 - Immigration Motion, TSR Conservative & Unionist Party




    Immigration Motion 2014

    This House believes that there are serious flaws in several aspects of our current immigration system.

    This House believes that as the UK is not the nearest safe country to any other country that asylum should be curtailed significantly except in exceptional circumstances.

    This House believes that all immigrants (both and EU and non-EU) should be subject to proof of GCSE grade C English and Maths equivalent and a speaking and listening test upon arrival and a CRB before access to Education and the NHS systems free at the point of delivery are allowed.

    While this House does not believe in restrictions on EU freedom of movement it calls on the TSR Government to reject the entry of new member states until GDP per capita reaches a satisfactory level such as $30k, in turn this House believes that the Foreign Secretary should seek to negotiate preferential labour agreements with non-EU countries which pass such a high GDP per capita threshold.
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    Requiring a child's parents to have GCSE equivalent English and Maths before providing access to the state education system? How does that fit with the human right to education? Likewise this would cease to provide emergency medical care via the EHIC system.

    I agree with restricting EU entry, but anything that touches true freedom of movement is a no-no.
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    Aye. Not as strict as I would like but it's a start.
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    (Original post by O133)
    Requiring a child's parents to have GCSE equivalent English and Maths before providing access to the state education system? How does that fit with the human right to education?
    They're not being denied education per se, but the right to access that education in a foreign country. No-one is stopping these people from accessing education in their own country. So this would not contravene article 26 of the universal declaration of human rights and several countries, such as Singapore, impose such limits already.

    (Original post by O133)

    I agree with restricting EU entry, but anything that touches true freedom of movement is a no-no.
    This motion does not impact upon the current freedom of movement within EU member states, but rather aims to make it more difficult to enter the union. So the fundamental tenet of freedom of movement would be preserved.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    They're not being denied education per se, but the right to access that education in a foreign country. No-one is stopping these people from accessing education in their own country. So this would not contravene article 26 of the universal declaration of human rights and several countries, such as Singapore, impose such limits already.



    This motion does not impact upon the current freedom of movement within EU member states, but rather aims to make it more difficult to enter the union. So the fundamental tenet of freedom of movement would be preserved.
    By "true freedom of movement" I mean the ability to go and live in a country and be treated like a citizen of that country.

    Plus, if they're contributing to the cost via taxation then why shouldn't they have access to publicly-funded services?
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    No.

    immigration laws are pretty draconian anyway. people come here instead of other places in search of a better life, nothing wrong with that imo
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    (Original post by O133)
    By "true freedom of movement" I mean the ability to go and live in a country and be treated like a citizen of that country.

    Plus, if they're contributing to the cost via taxation then why shouldn't they have access to publicly-funded services?
    The measures implemented would facilitate integration as basic English literacy and numeracy are necessary for most jobs, and the requirements set are easily attainable from any EU country. Free movement of labour would not be impacted in any meaningful way.
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    (Original post by Jean-Luc Picard)
    No.

    immigration laws are pretty draconian anyway. people come here instead of other places in search of a better life, nothing wrong with that imo
    That seems to me to be quite a simplistic view. Whilst there is nothing intrinsically wrong with people coming here in search of a better life, the strain on public services means reducing the number of immigrants is imperative.

    That's without even considering the social repercussions of mass immigration.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    That seems to me to be quite a simplistic view. Whilst there is nothing intrinsically wrong with people coming here in search of a better life, the strain on public services means reducing the number of immigrants is imperative.

    That's without even considering the social repercussions of mass immigration.
    the strain on public services is not that great, immigrants bring in more in tax than they take out from welfare for instance.

    a more diverse society, seems good to me.
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    (Original post by Jean-Luc Picard)
    the strain on public services is not that great, immigrants bring in more in tax than they take out from welfare for instance.

    a more diverse society, seems good to me.
    The impact on public services cannot be measured solely in financial terms. For instance, schools where the majority of pupils have English as their second language are not good learning environments for children.

    But I feel we're getting off-topic. This is a discussion on the motion, and not on immigration as a whole. No-one is disputing the benefits of a certain level of immigration.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The impact on public services cannot be measured solely in financial terms. For instance, schools where the majority of pupils have English as their second language are not good learning environments for children.

    But I feel we're getting off-topic. This is a discussion on the motion, and not on immigration as a whole. No-one is disputing the benefits of a certain level of immigration.
    why? means the kids are exposed to different languages & cultures which is surely a positive thing? also means the school has even more reason to have good English taught which benefits all students not just those who are new to it.

    meh, we are all immigrants anyway, Vikings, Celts, Saxons, Normans, etc
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    Nay. I won't vote for anything to restrict immigration.
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    So we intend to measure average income per capita for those countries who would wish to join the EU in dollars? Not in pounds? Preferential entry for those from Qatar, Liechtenstein, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, and probably in years to come, from China?

    If you are dyslexic you will not be considered for entry into the UK? What about those who can speak fluent Welsh, Scots Gaelic or Cornish?
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    If you are dyslexic you will not be considered for entry into the UK? What about those who can speak fluent Welsh, Scots Gaelic or Cornish?
    In reality fluent Welsh, Scottish Gaelic or Cornish will not be sufficient to get by, less still find a job.
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    Aye, a sensible measure to prevent unwanted unskilled immigration and promote the movement of skilled labour.
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    (Original post by Jean-Luc Picard)
    why? means the kids are exposed to different languages & cultures which is surely a positive thing? also means the school has even more reason to have good English taught which benefits all students not just those who are new to it.

    meh, we are all immigrants anyway, Vikings, Celts, Saxons, Normans, etc
    It's not a positive thing if the cultures are backwards and reactionary, and it has been shown that English students at these schools are held back. You can't expect an immigrant with no knowledge of English to be at the same level as native speakers.

    As for the "we're all immigrants" argument, whilst true it is irrelevant. There is no ideological argument against immigration, only an economic or social one.
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    I sighed, deeply, when I read the title - the sigh deepened through the motion.

    No.


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    I don't support freedom of movement within the EU but this is a good start nonetheless. Measuring peoples income in USD is ridiculous :confused:, we do have our own currency, called the British Pound, the authors of this motion would do well to remember that.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    It's not a positive thing if the cultures are backwards and reactionary, and it has been shown that English students at these schools are held back. You can't expect an immigrant with no knowledge of English to be at the same level as native speakers.

    As for the "we're all immigrants" argument, whilst true it is irrelevant. There is no ideological argument against immigration, only an economic or social one.
    how many is that actually true of though? and how many people from those cultures actively promote them in the UK? (not many is the answer), people can & do learn English, there is nothing wrong with that.

    there is no social argument against it either beyond narrow minded xenophobia or borderline racism (as your culture comment rather aptly demonstrates), the only arguments against it are economic, and frankly as I am not a capitalist I regard those as utterly irrelevant myself so yeah, no way I will vote for this kind of thing.
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    (Original post by Jean-Luc Picard)
    how many is that actually true of though? and how many people from those cultures actively promote them in the UK? (not many is the answer), people can & do learn English, there is nothing wrong with that.

    there is no social argument against it either beyond narrow minded xenophobia or borderline racism (as your culture comment rather aptly demonstrates), the only arguments against it are economic, and frankly as I am not a capitalist I regard those as utterly irrelevant myself so yeah, no way I will vote for this kind of thing.
    Considering there seems to be a new primary school in the news every week where English is no longer the most common first language its becoming a huge problem. Most of the teachers only speak English and English is not just important in English lessons but in all lesson which will probably be taught through English. The native speakers will find it easier to understand the work, those with poorer English will struggle (especially in science with terminology) and you find the natives are in one set, non-natives but been here a long time in another and new arrivals in a third set. The schools, in an effort to push each child, end up separating out talent and class progress which is usually connected to language skills. I went to a school with a high number of Asia pupils. They were all in the lower sets for everything apart from maths and as a result formed their own little social group which was ignored. We struggled to communicate and had nothing in common. The different groups all start fighting and the school had high levels of segregation.

    This leads to the social side of it. It's all well and good having diverse foods, friends and cultures but it has been too much, too fast. Most gangs are form in minority ethnicity. Most inter-gang fighting is between ethnic minorities. A walk around a city reveals the different sections where ethnic communities live. Reluctance to learn English leads to segregation and misunderstandings. Populations will never feel connected until they have things in common. The big one being a common language to communicate. Immigration and multiculturalism doesn't work socially unless integration is pushed. Unfortunately, integration doesn't really happen much but we tend to push it under the carpet and only look at the positives as, hey, why focus on negative social impacts when there are positive impacts?
 
 
 
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