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    I find it unnecessarily complicated to rationalise a solution in which free will is some metaphysical concept related to souls existing in a metaphysical realm, unpredictable to their creating God. It seems far simpler (and therefore more plausible?) that it is nothing more than an illusion of interactions beyond our predictive ability.

    What do you think?
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    Whats the point of writing that quetion using so many long words? Simplify it and itll make more sense to people other than yourself.
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    (Original post by amrish)
    Whats the point of writing that quetion using so many long words? Simplify it and itll make more sense to people other than yourself.
    Hmm, ok. I'd assumed the title was as good a question as any, but sorry for what is probably an incomprehensible paragraph.

    Anyways, I'll split it into a few questions.
    1. Do you think free will is an illusion of unpredictable interactions, or some real phenomenon? Why?
    2. Do you think the concept of an omnipotent God and creations beyond his prediction (and understanding) are compatible or mutually exclusive? Why?
    3. Do you think free will and its integral role in our morality, blame and justice is a result of finding a convenient solution to a difficult problem, or do you consider free will as a solution to be correct and justifiable?
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    (Original post by rIcHrD)
    Hmm, ok. I'd assumed the title was as good a question as any, but sorry for what is probably an incomprehensible paragraph.

    Anyways, I'll split it into a few questions.
    1. Do you think free will is an illusion of unpredictable interactions, or some real phenomenon? Why?
    2. Do you think the concept of an omnipotent God and creations beyond his prediction (and understanding) are compatible or mutually exclusive? Why?
    3. Do you think free will and its integral role in our morality, blame and justice is a result of finding a convenient solution to a difficult problem, or do you consider free will as a solution to be correct and justifiable?
    The only true free will that we have is refusal to do something.
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    (Original post by rIcHrD)
    I find it unnecessarily complicated to rationalise a solution in which free will is some metaphysical concept related to souls existing in a metaphysical realm, unpredictable to their creating God. It seems far simpler (and therefore more plausible?) that it is nothing more than an illusion of interactions beyond our predictive ability.

    What do you think?
    I think you should put the dictionary away now.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I think you should put the dictionary away now.
    Haha - is that all you would like to contribute?
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    The only true free will that we have is refusal to do something.
    However, if you don't believe in free will you're predestined/preconditioned/prewhatevered to refuse to do it.
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    (Original post by rIcHrD)
    Haha - is that all you would like to contribute?
    That's more than I'd like to contribute. Consider yourself lucky.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    However, if you don't believe in free will you're predestined/preconditioned/prewhatevered to refuse to do it.
    Not quite sure what you mean...
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    If you deny the existence of free will, then refusing to do something is just as much produced by whatever forces make you act as doing something.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    If you deny the existence of free will, then refusing to do something is just as much produced by whatever forces make you act as doing something.
    Whether you believe in 'free will' or whatever, the only real contol/right/will you definitely have is to do something or refuse to do it.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    Whether you believe in 'free will' or whatever, the only real contol/right/will you definitely have is to do something or refuse to do it.
    No. If you reject free will, then your decisions are determined by other factors. It does not matter what your decision is. The act of decision is simply an illusion- perhaps a perception of your behaviour. Jump out of an aeroplane and decide to fall.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    No. If you reject free will, then your decisions are determined by other factors. It does not matter what your decision is. The act of decision is simply an illusion- perhaps a perception of your behaviour. Jump out of an aeroplane and decide to fall.
    Sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Are you talking about fate???:confused:
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    Sorry, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Are you talking about fate???:confused:
    No. If someone rejects free will as an idea, then they think that every decision someone makes is not and cannot be the result of a freely chosen decision, but a justification of what they will do anyway. We decide to do what we are going to do whether we decide or not, even if what we are going to do is not do anything. It doesn't matter whether our behaviour is controlled by fate, predestination or complicated social conditioning. This includes believing in or rejecting free will, of course.
    Someone may think they have decided to do something, but- as far as the denier of free will is concerned- that decision is merely a justification for what they would do anyway. The analogy I gave- jump out of plane and decide to fall- is one where free will is irrelevant. You'll fall whether you decide to or not. To someone who doesn't believe in free will every apparent decision is like the decision to fall.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    No. If someone rejects free will as an idea, then they think that every decision someone makes is not and cannot be the result of a freely chosen decision, but a justification of what they will do anyway. We decide to do what we are going to do whether we decide or not, even if what we are going to do is not do anything. It doesn't matter whether our behaviour is controlled by fate, predestination or complicated social conditioning. This includes believing in or rejecting free will, of course.
    Someone may think they have decided to do something, but- as far as the denier of free will is concerned- that decision is merely a justification for what they would do anyway. The analogy I gave- jump out of plane and decide to fall- is one where free will is irrelevant. You'll fall whether you decide to or not. To someone who doesn't believe in free will every apparent decision is like the decision to fall.
    Surely you have to have some kind of will in order to be able to reject the concept of free will. Jumping out of a plane - people make decisions based on what they know/believe, and if you consider jumping out of a plane you also consider the consequences of the action. Assuming you have the knowledge of gravity this will influence your decision (whether you want it to or not), so you know that if you jump you will fall. So, making the decision to jump is also making the decision to fall.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    So, making the decision to jump is also making the decision to fall.
    Yes, now consider that your decision to jump is analogous to your decision to fall, i.e. a result of previous 'decisions' and interactions with the world. Then would it be true that since u were born, you were always going to jump and hence fall - so was it really a decision, as it was always going to happen that way?
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    (Original post by rIcHrD)
    Yes, now consider that your decision to jump is analogous to your decision to fall, i.e. a result of previous 'decisions' and interactions with the world. Then would it be true that since u were born, you were always going to fall and hence jump - hence it wasn't really a decision as it was never variable.
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK............huh ?:confused:
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    If there were no free will, why would someone be forcing (in some way) people to kill and rape etc and make people kill themselves?
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    (Original post by rIcHrD)
    Yes, now consider that your decision to jump is analogous to your decision to fall, i.e. a result of previous 'decisions' and interactions with the world. Then would it be true that since u were born, you were always going to jump and hence fall - so was it really a decision, as it was always going to happen that way?
    Ok. isn't that fate though?
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    (Original post by Daveo)
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK............huh ?:confused:
    sorry, misphrased; edited now...
 
 
 
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