My issues with statutory rape... Watch

Poll: Do you agree with statutory rape?
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No (10)
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I'm not sure (5)
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bittr n swt
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#1
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I don't mean any offence in here, just want a nice comfy debate. Not a big ask surely...

So statutory rape is when a young person below the age of consent gives CONSENT to have sex with a person above the age of consent.

Now just because this person is below the age of consent doesn't mean they don't have capacity to make a well informed decision.

I mean a 16 year old having sex with a 15 year old in the same year group shouldn't be frowned upon but it is...

Or if a 15 year old girl goes to a nightclub with fake ID and pulls a guy but the guy is totally oblivious to her real age because she looks older. The guy could be in a lot of heat...should guys have to ask every girl their age when they pull? No.

I just feel uncomfortable with the word rape being linked to an underage girl giving consent.

I know the law is there to protect young kids but I just feel it's unbalanced.

In my opinion I can't see them as rapists or sexual predators.
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donutaud15
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#2
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I thought the same until it happened to my cousin. Her boyfriend who was 19 at that time (she was 15) also slept with someone who was significantly younger. She realised just how much she was manipulated so he can have sex with young girls.

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LawSam
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I believe that the law is actually an adult (over 18) having sex with someone below the age of consent. So like an 18 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

Honestly I'm half and half. Some 15 year olds can probably make an informed decision. But a 15 year old is also probably more likely to be pressured into something than someone older.
On this basis I actually think the law does balance quite well with protecting children. 15 is not old enough to consent. 18 is old enough to take responsibility. 15 years old is a child, 18 is an adult. Very few 15 year old girls look like they're 18. If the guy is in any way unsure that they may not be over the age of consent then they should ask!
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bittr n swt
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#4
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(Original post by donutaud15)
I thought the same until it happened to my cousin. Her boyfriend who was 19 at that time (she was 15) also slept with someone who was significantly younger. She realised just how much she was manipulated so he can have sex with young girls.

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Yeah I agree, some guys do manipulate and that's where I support the law in this but of course there are some that don't know (clubs) so they're now on the sex register.

I think they should be judged on a case by case basis to determine if one should be put on the sex register or not.
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bittr n swt
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#5
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(Original post by LawSam)
I believe that the law is actually an adult (over 18) having sex with someone below the age of consent. So like an 18 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

Honestly I'm half and half. Some 15 year olds can probably make an informed decision. But a 15 year old is also probably more likely to be pressured into something than someone older.
On this basis I actually think the law does balance quite well with protecting children. 15 is not old enough to consent. 18 is old enough to take responsibility. 15 years old is a child, 18 is an adult. Very few 15 year old girls look like they're 18. If the guy is in any way unsure that they may not be over the age of consent then they should ask!
If it's 18 then I guess I'm mistaken.

Yes I agree with 15 year olds likely to be manipulated but I think many know what they're doing snd what they want. They want to explore and have that natural urge in them.

I think 15 is old enough to consent tbh. I mean UK have the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe but our age of consent is higher than some in Europe.
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ihavemooedtoday
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#6
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In many places of the world, underage sex carries no or lower penalty if the other person is also underage.
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bittr n swt
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#7
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(Original post by ihavemooedtoday)
In many places of the world, underage sex carries no or lower penalty if the other person is also underage.
And do you agree with this?
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vikrmmn
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#8
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You need to reword your question, "Do you agree with statutory rape?" Is a completely different to "Should statutory rape be made legal?" or " Should statutory rape be considered rape?" Just because I typed those questions doesn't mean i agree with them.
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ihavemooedtoday
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#9
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(Original post by bittr n swt)
And do you agree with this?
I do agree with this.

I only have problem with say 20 year olds having sex with 15 year olds, because 15 year olds are more easily manipulated.

Of course, some 15 yos are more mature than others, but we have to draw the line somewhere, since not having any limit is clearly not a good idea. And where ever we draw the line, there will be people on the wrong side of the line.
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LawSam
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#10
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(Original post by bittr n swt)
If it's 18 then I guess I'm mistaken.

Yes I agree with 15 year olds likely to be manipulated but I think many know what they're doing snd what they want. They want to explore and have that natural urge in them.

I think 15 is old enough to consent tbh. I mean UK have the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe but our age of consent is higher than some in Europe.
Honestly I think it's over simplifying it to say that a 15 year old isn't old enough and then the next day when they're 16 they are. It's different for every individual. I know some people that emotionally and eduction-wise couldn't really consent to sex at 18. Others were active from 14-15 and they were emotionally mature enough.

At that kind of age though I can't really imagine what an 18 year old guy would want with a 15 year old girl...

I think education and self-empowerment is important. Having sex education from a younger age (I'm thinking proper sex-ed in primary school) and educating young people that it really is okay to progress at your own speed. At my school everything was rushed over in a 2 hour time slot when I was 14. The whole subject was treated like a taboo that no-one wanted to talk about.

Education and openness is necessary. There's always going to be a need for a consent age limit. And there will always be people that don't fit with that limit because everyone is different. I think the current age limit of 16 fits quite well with how pathetic our sexual education is. As far as I'm concerned, if schools aren't even talking to kids about sex until they're 14/15 then most of them could not possibly have enough knowledge to make an informed decision in consenting.

As far as 15 year olds exploring natural urges, I agree. But I think they should be doing it with people their own age, not people 3 or more years older than them with lots more experience that they could be easily pressured and manipulated by.
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bittr n swt
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#11
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(Original post by ihavemooedtoday)
I do agree with this.

I only have problem with say 20 year olds having sex with 15 year olds, because 15 year olds are more easily manipulated.

Of course, some 15 yos are more mature than others, but we have to draw the line somewhere, since not having any limit is clearly not a good idea. And where ever we draw the line, there will be people on the wrong side of the line.
I definitely agree to.
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zippity.doodah
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I'm very sceptical of the age of consent (at least in its current form) in that it makes consent and freedom null for the sake of paternalistic moralistic condescension, but what I'm not sceptical about is responsibility, and the importance of consent; if a person does not consent to sex, then that should, obviously, be rape in any circumstance.
most teens start puberty at 13, for example - so why isn't the age of consent 13? are we simply, as a society, too scared of 13 year olds having sex? is that it? is it not about consent then but us dictating to the lives of teenagers? ...why?

I mean, does *anybody* think that 15 years olds are "too stupid" to consent to sex? seriously? that's actually insane. listen to how idiotic that claim is out loud...
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Octopus_Garden
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#13
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This is a UK-based site. We don't have "statutory rape" in England and Wales. The closest we have is the offence for sexual activity with a child of 13.

13, not 16, not 18. This is not a state of America.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/5

Does anyone have a specific problem with 13 as a cut-off point? Too high, too low?
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LawSam
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(Original post by Octopus_Garden)
This is a UK-based site. We don't have "statutory rape" in England and Wales. The closest we have is the offence for sexual activity with a child of 13.

13, not 16, not 18. This is not a state of America.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/5

Does anyone have a specific problem with 13 as a cut-off point? Too high, too low?
Should have checked section 9....
Child sex offences
9 Sexual activity with a child
(1)A person aged 18 or over (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual, and
(c)either—
(i)B is under 16 and A does not reasonably believe that B is 16 or over, or
(ii)B is under 13.

It's not called statutory rape. But in essence it is the same thing. A person over 18 having sexual contact with a person under 16 is a sexual offence if they know/reasonably would believe they're under 16.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by bittr n swt)
Or if a 15 year old girl goes to a nightclub with fake ID and pulls a guy but the guy is totally oblivious to her real age because she looks older. The guy could be in a lot of heat...should guys have to ask every girl their age when they pull? No.
From what I understand, as long as the kid is at least 13, being convinced with reasonable cause that they were of age is a valid legal defence, though I might be wrong.

Close-in-age consensual sex from 12-15 is de jure illegal but de facto tolerated in the UK. Personally I'd prefer a Canada-style staged system where it's de jure legal, but it's not too important.

The only problem I have with age of consent laws (that I don't really have a solution to) is controlling parents abusing them as proxy for their dislike of their kid's partner (this often happens with gay teenagers and homophobic parents). I remember hearing about a case in the US a while back about a 15-year-old girl having sex with her 17-year-old girlfriend and then her parents taking her girlfriend to court over it simply because they didn't like their daughter being gay.
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Octopus_Garden
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(Original post by LawSam)
Should have checked section 9....
Child sex offences
9 Sexual activity with a child
(1)A person aged 18 or over (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual, and
(c)either—
(i)B is under 16 and A does not reasonably believe that B is 16 or over, or
(ii)B is under 13.

It's not called statutory rape. But in essence it is the same thing. A person over 18 having sexual contact with a person under 16 is a sexual offence if they know/reasonably would believe they're under 16.
Not called it, and not same thing. Note the fact it's not strict liability due to the reasonable belief element. The American "statutory rape" generally is strict liability. That's why these laws are so notorious.
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Octopus_Garden
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(Original post by anarchism101)
From what I understand, as long as the kid is at least 13, being convinced with reasonable cause that they were of age is a valid legal defence, though I might be wrong.

Close-in-age consensual sex from 12-15 is de jure illegal but de facto tolerated in the UK. Personally I'd prefer a Canada-style staged system where it's de jure legal, but it's not too important.

The only problem I have with age of consent laws (that I don't really have a solution to) is controlling parents abusing them as proxy for their dislike of their kid's partner (this often happens with gay teenagers and homophobic parents). I remember hearing about a case in the US a while back about a 15-year-old girl having sex with her 17-year-old girlfriend and then her parents taking her girlfriend to court over it simply because they didn't like their daughter being gay.
Here, afaik, (I'd be interested if anyone has details of a policy change) that's dealt with by greater emphasis on the underage partner's wishes. Police won't prosecute the partner of anyone over 13 against their will.

Now, Ireland is awful. Their Romeo-and-Juliet laws are awful, and especially unfair to boys in healthy relationships with same-aged peers. Criminalises teenage boys for mutually-agreed activity and infantilises teenage girls.
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LawSam
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(Original post by Octopus_Garden)
Not called it, and not same thing. Note the fact it's not strict liability due to the reasonable belief element. The American "statutory rape" generally is strict liability. That's why these laws are so notorious.
It might not be called it and it might not hold the same weight as the US law but it does mean the same thing. A person over the age of 18 can be imprisoned for having sex with someone under 16.

Unlike the American law there's a defence in that the person can claim they didn't know their age. But at the end of the day if that's not accepted, then they can go to prison for it. Arguing that it's not exactly the same thing is splitting hairs. Instead of the American 'will go to prison if found out' it's 'can go to prison'.

On this basis I think our law is much fairer than the American law - which is what I was trying to put across in my earlier points.

If the person is so young emotionally/physically that it is beyond reasonble doubt that they are not 16 then the 18+ person goes to prison as a sexual offender. And in my view they should because it is likely that that child has been manipulated or pressured.
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catrinana
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(Original post by vikrmmn)
You need to reword your question, "Do you agree with statutory rape?" Is a completely different to "Should statutory rape be made legal?" or " Should statutory rape be considered rape?" Just because I typed those questions doesn't mean i agree with them.
I second that.
"Should statutory rape be considered rape?" is a much better wording.
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lamyers1
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
I'm very sceptical of the age of consent (at least in its current form) in that it makes consent and freedom null for the sake of paternalistic moralistic condescension, but what I'm not sceptical about is responsibility, and the importance of consent; if a person does not consent to sex, then that should, obviously, be rape in any circumstance.
most teens start puberty at 13, for example - so why isn't the age of consent 13? are we simply, as a society, too scared of 13 year olds having sex? is that it? is it not about consent then but us dictating to the lives of teenagers? ...why?

I mean, does *anybody* think that 15 years olds are "too stupid" to consent to sex? seriously? that's actually insane. listen to how idiotic that claim is out loud...

Its to do with their capacity to make a decision, not whether they are stupid. Maturity is a large factor - a child of 13 is not at all mature enough to consent to sex, FULLY understanding the consequences and emotional attachment. Plus, it can be very physically damaging for a 13 year old to carry a child. Whilst they have started puberty, they have not finished it and are not physically or mentally prepared for sexual intercourse.
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