Hamas holds victory rally in Gaza

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young_guns
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Following the agreement to an "indefinite ceasefire" by Israel, Hamas has held a large victory rally in Gaza, patting themselves on the back for their great military "triumph".

Over 2000 Palestinians dead, including 900 members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, a number of their top commanders killed, over $5 billion in damage caused, several thousand homes flattened, many important industrial facilities completely destroyed, and Israel has made no concessions whatsoever.

And that is a victory, apparently. Haniyeh says that "the resistance had the final word". If that's a victory, I'd hate to see what a defeat looks like. These people are truly insane. I would have thought Israel saying no to any concessions, and the status quo remaining, would be considered "the final word"?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/vid...-in-gaza-video
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tibis
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i'd be insane too if i lived in gaza

what amazes me is the views which ppl who support israel hold on issues in europe
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young_guns
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(Original post by tibis)
i'd be insane too if i lived in gaza
I probably would be too, living under a crazy Islamofascist dictatorship that uses children as human shields.

Interestingly, a lot of reports coming out of Gaza that the people are furious with Hamas, it didn't have a lot of support before the current conflict and its reign was looking tenuous. Gazans are unbelievably pissed off that they just experienced another devastating war for no gain.

Anyone who supports Hamas under those circumstances clearly despises the Palestinians and wants to see more of them dead. Interesting quotes below from the Guardian

In the neighbourhood of Shujai'iya, scene of the most intensive battle of the war between Israeli troops and Gaza militants, the Musabeh family was picking through the debris of their home.
"There is nothing left, we lost everything," said Naima Musabeh, 49. "Where is the good from this? We are destroyed."Her son Ali, 29, was bitter about the outcome of the conflict. "This war was for nothing. Yesterday they were giving out sweets in the street and shooting [in celebration], but I was crying when they said it was a victory."
But of course, Israel is to blame. Mustn't forget who the real villains are.
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young_guns
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What's even more interesting is that Hamas accepted a ceasefire on precisely the same terms as it was offered when only 200 people had died. So they got nothing. They sacrificed 1800 additional lives for precisely nothing. And now they parade through the streets like they are all-conquering heroes, that is ****ing disgusting
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young_guns
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(Original post by tibis)
what amazes me is the views which ppl who support israel hold on issues in europe
What does that even mean?
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the north
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both Hamas and Israel are murderers ,both have no value for innocent human lives
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JohnDoe19
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Israels ****ed up for using ridiculous levels of firepower essentially indiscriminately while Hamas is equally if not more in the wrong for using children and civilians as human shields even when they knew Israel would open fire anyway and for starting a war which they could never win. In the end it come down to Hamas being nut cases who are willing to forcibly throwaway huge numbers of lives for no gain. Anybody who says Hamas didn't know how Israel was going to respond is just plain wrong.
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young_guns
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(Original post by the north)
both Hamas and Israel are murderers ,both have no value for innocent human lives
I beg to differ. Israel obviously values human life in that it has spent billions on bomb shelters for its citizens and on missile defence systems. It even shows its value for Palestinian lives with its "knock on the roof" warnings, text messages and phone calls to Palestinians to tell them to leave their homes when a bombing or ground attack is imminent.

Hamas shows their complete contempt for their own citizens by using them as human shields. Hamas uses humans to shield their rockets, whereas Israel uses rockets to shield their humans.

The distinction between their moral positions can be shown if you reverse the situations and ask what would happen if Israel used its own citizens as human shields against Hamas attack. Of course, it creates an almost Pythonesque absurdity, given Hamas would be even more likely to shoot.
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tibis
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i was more thinking that i would be insane from the humiliation of being ethincally cleansed and forced into a small corner of my homeland.
regardless of what happened before i still would not see any excuse for it and even if i could sympathize with the excuse i would not rly give a sht and still feel like killing alot of people.

i was more thinking that i would be the islamofascist dictator with genocidal fantasies than uses children as human shields.

what did i mean? don't u worry ur little head about it, all that stuff in history is just crazy stuff that doesn't mean anything people just did things because they were totally crazy and paranoid and their beliefs were baseless and founded on nothing that was actually happening
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young_guns
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(Original post by JohnDoe19)
Israels ****ed up for using ridiculous levels of firepower essentially indiscriminately
I'm sorry but you seem to be confused about the meaning of the word indiscriminate. Indiscriminate would be, say, firing artillery shells back at the co-ordinates of wherever rockets were fired from, rather than targeting the homes of Hamas commanders and warning civilians to leave ahead of time.

But given your objections to Israel's military strategy, why don't you tell us how you would have stopped the rockets raining down? How would you have reduced civilian casualties if you were the IDF Chief of Staff?

while Hamas is equally if not more in the wrong for using children and civilians as human shields even when they knew Israel would open fire anyway and for starting a war which they could never win. In the end it come down to Hamas being nut cases who are willing to forcibly throwaway huge numbers of lives for no gain.
On this we are in agreement.

Anybody who says Hamas didn't know how Israel was going to respond is just plain wrong.
Not only did Hamas know Israel would respond that way, they were counting on it. If Hamas fires a rocket from a civilian area and Israel doesn't respond because it fears civilian casualties, then they have had a "win" (of sorts) by being able to get a free shot. If Israel responds and they hit civilians, Hamas has a PR win and they will parade the bodies in front of the cameras and tell the world how evil and bloodthirsty the Israelis are
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young_guns
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Excellent podcast by famed atheist Sam Harris on the subject of Israel/Palestine. He is spot on, as usual

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young_guns
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(Original post by tibis)
i was more thinking that i would be insane from the humiliation of being ethincally cleansed
You're embarassing yourself by using words like ethnic cleansing. Bosnia was ethnic cleansing. Southern Sudan was ethnic cleansing.

A state which has only ever gained territory in defensive wars, and killed about 10,000 Palestinians in the last 50 years (i.e. less than the West killed in Afghanistan in the last 10) is not ethnic cleansing. They're doing a pretty poor job of it given the Palestinian population has increased 400% in the last 60 years.

and forced into a small corner of my homeland.
How has a family who has never lived anywhere but Gaza, and lives there now, been forced anywhere? They live in the same place they've always lived.

what did i mean? don't u worry ur little head about it, all that stuff in history is just crazy stuff that doesn't mean anything people just did things because they were totally crazy and paranoid and their beliefs were baseless and founded on nothing that was actually happening
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the north
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(Original post by young_guns)
I beg to differ. Israel obviously values human life in that it has spent billions on bomb shelters for its citizens and on missile defence systems. It even shows its value for Palestinian lives with its "knock on the roof" warnings, text messages and phone calls to Palestinians to tell them to leave their homes when a bombing or ground attack is imminent.

Hamas shows their complete contempt for their own citizens by using them as human shields. Hamas uses humans to shield their rockets, whereas Israel uses rockets to shield their humans.

The distinction between their moral positions can be shown if you reverse the situations and ask what would happen if Israel used its own citizens as human shields against Hamas attack. Of course, it creates an almost Pythonesque absurdity, given Hamas would be even more likely to shoot.
most if not all Human rights group criticized Israel (as well as hamas btw) in this latest conflict. 2000 dead with 75% civilians shows that Israel value for human life is at a very low standard . And come on i cant believe this human shield propaganda lie is still around. Maybe read this article http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9619810.html
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JohnDoe19
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(Original post by young_guns)
But given your objections to Israel's military strategy, why don't you tell us how you would have stopped the rockets raining down? How would you have reduced civilian casualties if you were the IDF Chief of Staff?


By essentially indiscriminately I mean how they managed to shell more than one UN school. Israel hasn't exactly been restrained in fighting Hamas, they didn't need to invade and waste entire neighborhoods. Rockets 'raining down' is incorrect. Hamas rockets kill very few people, I'm not saying Israel should sit there and take it but a more proportionate response would have been appropriate. I'm on Israel's side in this, but that doesn't mean what they did is right. Far from it.
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tibis
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ethnic cleansing

noun
noun: ethnic cleansing

  • the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.










and since the west has become involved in the issue there now the serbs are being ethnically cleansed by the albanians.

ethnic cleansing is to do with removing people from lands, their population does not need to decrease, whether they are defensive wars is debatable and irrelevant.

a family who has never lived anywhere near gaza but now lives there has not been forced anywhere? and you're talking about how i fail at english? you just contradicted yourself. you also apparently have difficulty with abbreviations
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young_guns
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(Original post by the north)
most if not all Human rights group criticized Israel (as well as hamas btw) in this latest conflict. 2000 dead with 75% civilians
It's more like 55% civilian deaths. Which, for urban warfare, is actually a pretty good hit rate. It looks positively civilised next to the Battle of Berlin. Have you ever heard of World War 2?

shows that Israel value for human life is at a very low standard
Utter nonsense. If Israel didn't value human life, they wouldn't do the "knock on the roof". That point is indisputable.

And come on i cant believe this human shield propaganda lie is still around.
And I literally cannot believe you're denying it. Even the most ardent pro-Hamas supporters on this forum accept that Hamas fires its rockets from civilian areas knowing what the outcome of this will be.

Hamas spokesmen have even gone on television saying that Palestinians would go onto the roofs of Hamas commanders houses and "bare their chests" at the F-16s, and that this was an effective tactic (i.e. a human shield).
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young_guns
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Channel 4 factchecker blog confirms that Hamas uses human shields

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-shields/18534
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tibis
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(Original post by young_guns)
:lol: Not "anywhere near". It was "anywhere but"

You seem to be having difficulty with your comprehension of the English language. Go back and try again :dunce:
avoiding the actual points where i have pointed out that you are incorrect
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young_guns
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(Original post by tibis)
and if you're not exceptionally stupid you are either blinkered or a racist jewish supremacist
Nope, just a realist, whereas you seem to be unacquainted with basic facts of this conflict. Even Hamas supporters accept that it uses human shields, though their argument is that this is necessary because of the disparity

Channel 4 factchecker blog confirms that Hamas uses human shields

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-shields/18534
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young_guns
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To put this to bed once and for all. Hamas spokesman speaks of their use of human shields

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