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Can you help a victimised student?
Help! We urgently need ammunition to help prove that my niece is being unfairly treated by her University. We need to hear from people who have been the subject of disciplinary hearings by their Universities to try and help prove that the treatment (and punishment!) she has received from such a hearing is unfair and way over the top!
The story is this: she was about to qualify from her nursing degree this month, but has now been kicked off her course and will not be granted her degree because she is unable to prove that a signature on a time sheet is valid! This is the only reason she has been thrown off, otherwise her record is very good.
As a student nurse she has to do a number of external placements and is required to fill in time sheets for these, the time sheets have to be signed off by her mentor (or another suitable person if her mentor is unavailable).
Out of the blue a few weeks ago she was accused of forging signatures on several time sheets and was called before a hearing at her university. She has proved that this accusation was incorrect on all but one count, but was unfortunately unable to prove the last one because the sheet in question (a time sheet from over 2 years ago!) was left for a suitable person to sign as her mentor was away, it was returned to her signed, but now nobody is able to identify the signature.
The time worked, as recorded in the time sheet, is not in dispute as she has been able to prove, to their satisfaction, that she has worked the hours shown -- the only thing in dispute is the authorship of the signature.
The hearing decided, on the "balance of probabilities", that she had forged the signature! This is despite the fact that she proved the other allegations incorrect and that she has produced letters/statements supporting her honesty.
It means that 4 years work, her degree and all prospects of a nursing career are thrown away, as well as tarnishing her with a record as a liar and leaving her utterly despondent!
The union (UNISON) has been involved (although not as effectively as one would have hoped!!); and we are still perusing all avenues we can think of to try and prove that authorship of the signature. But what we are still in need of are examples that may help to prove that the University have not judged the balance of probabilities fairly; and examples to help prove that the punishment is beyond the norm for such cases and out of all proportion.
Can any one help provide these sorts of examples? They need not be in relation to a nursing degree, just any experiences with University disciplinary hearings.
Thanks
The story is this: she was about to qualify from her nursing degree this month, but has now been kicked off her course and will not be granted her degree because she is unable to prove that a signature on a time sheet is valid! This is the only reason she has been thrown off, otherwise her record is very good.
As a student nurse she has to do a number of external placements and is required to fill in time sheets for these, the time sheets have to be signed off by her mentor (or another suitable person if her mentor is unavailable).
Out of the blue a few weeks ago she was accused of forging signatures on several time sheets and was called before a hearing at her university. She has proved that this accusation was incorrect on all but one count, but was unfortunately unable to prove the last one because the sheet in question (a time sheet from over 2 years ago!) was left for a suitable person to sign as her mentor was away, it was returned to her signed, but now nobody is able to identify the signature.
The time worked, as recorded in the time sheet, is not in dispute as she has been able to prove, to their satisfaction, that she has worked the hours shown -- the only thing in dispute is the authorship of the signature.
The hearing decided, on the "balance of probabilities", that she had forged the signature! This is despite the fact that she proved the other allegations incorrect and that she has produced letters/statements supporting her honesty.
It means that 4 years work, her degree and all prospects of a nursing career are thrown away, as well as tarnishing her with a record as a liar and leaving her utterly despondent!
The union (UNISON) has been involved (although not as effectively as one would have hoped!!); and we are still perusing all avenues we can think of to try and prove that authorship of the signature. But what we are still in need of are examples that may help to prove that the University have not judged the balance of probabilities fairly; and examples to help prove that the punishment is beyond the norm for such cases and out of all proportion.
Can any one help provide these sorts of examples? They need not be in relation to a nursing degree, just any experiences with University disciplinary hearings.
Thanks
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That is truly screwed up. Have you gotten any legal help yet? If not, I suggest you do so. Get a lawyer to help you fight this or at least look into the case for you.
I hope she wins because she deserves to win. I seriously hate university admins and these sort of things. I was almost screwed by them once but that's nothing compared to this.
I hope she wins because she deserves to win. I seriously hate university admins and these sort of things. I was almost screwed by them once but that's nothing compared to this.
I see the media getting involved. Get the student newspaper online with this case. Make sure that word gets out especially at this time of year when students are starting to make choices about which courses they want to go on. This can make top class students say stuff it, I am going somewhere else and they will take their intelligence with them
Legal wise, lawyers might start being a good idea. This is another case where universities need an omnbudsman
Legal wise, lawyers might start being a good idea. This is another case where universities need an omnbudsman
The burden of prrof should be with them. I'm not a legal expert, but I would imagine that it would be their problem.
I find that story unbelievable-Why are they being such arseholes?
Is there more to this than you're telling us? I don't think one forged signature is grounds for a boot off of the course....
Why would she lie?
She is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round, as others have said the burden is solely on their shoulders.
Go to the media, go to your local MP/Council, get some legal advice, talk to other members of staff throughout the uni. Literally smother them with letters. If you get the staff mentioning the treatement to the bureaucrats...do everything possible to make sure its not worthwhile to pursue on their part, they are trying to screw you, you should show them how its done.
And don't give up.
She is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round, as others have said the burden is solely on their shoulders.
Go to the media, go to your local MP/Council, get some legal advice, talk to other members of staff throughout the uni. Literally smother them with letters. If you get the staff mentioning the treatement to the bureaucrats...do everything possible to make sure its not worthwhile to pursue on their part, they are trying to screw you, you should show them how its done.
And don't give up.
The burden of proof often lies with the defendant in tort law which I'm sure this would fall under...
Why would this fall under tort?
That serves a person's interest...a university is not a person. Furthermore they have not had their property damaged, lost financial resources, or suffered a negative impact on their reputation.
Tort law is about reconstituting people to how they were before the offense was committed I think? What does the university need reconstituted?
That serves a person's interest...a university is not a person. Furthermore they have not had their property damaged, lost financial resources, or suffered a negative impact on their reputation.
Tort law is about reconstituting people to how they were before the offense was committed I think? What does the university need reconstituted?
tehjonny
Why would this fall under tort?
That serves a person's interest...a university is not a person. Furthermore they have not had their property damaged, lost financial resources, or suffered a negative impact on their reputation.
Tort law is about reconstituting people to how they were before the offense was committed I think? What does the university need reconstituted?
That serves a person's interest...a university is not a person. Furthermore they have not had their property damaged, lost financial resources, or suffered a negative impact on their reputation.
Tort law is about reconstituting people to how they were before the offense was committed I think? What does the university need reconstituted?
Surely the student is the one seeking to be reinstated on her course and hence this serves a person's interest?
Oh right, well if I'm wrong, then what criminal act has taken place? :\
Nothing? Then why the lawyer?
Edit: And tort can serve an organisation's or more than one person's interest.. so of course the university doesn't need to be a person like you randomly say.
Think before you talk.
But the student did not start the proceedings, the university did.
I don't much about law man, you most likely know more.
But hey, at least I made a positive comment. Rather than accusing the OP of lying and then trying to blow her out the water...now, if you know so much about law, how about helping her out?
I don't much about law man, you most likely know more.
But hey, at least I made a positive comment. Rather than accusing the OP of lying and then trying to blow her out the water...now, if you know so much about law, how about helping her out?
tehjonny
But the student did not start the proceedings, the university did.
I don't much about law man, you most likely know more.
But hey, at least I made a positive comment. Rather than accusing the OP of lying and then trying to blow her out the water...now, if you know so much about law, how about helping her out?
I don't much about law man, you most likely know more.
But hey, at least I made a positive comment. Rather than accusing the OP of lying and then trying to blow her out the water...now, if you know so much about law, how about helping her out?
Didn't mean anything by it bud! Jeez it must be the way I write get's peoples' backs up.
Edit: Just to clarify, a tort basically means a wrong. If someone is 'wronged' by a person / organisation then they may seek compensation from the wrongdoer to reimburse them for damages incurred such as any losses. So in this case there are a few things you could argue... especially along the lines (if you can prove the unfairness of being dismissed) that you have lost alot of money on the course up to this point (but this would be negated by the fact that the decision would be reversed if they were proved to be in the wrong) and to be removed from the course for such an unfair and trivial issue has meant that you will have incurred further losses by time lost up to this point on the course. If you could prove them wrong then they may well be forced to take you back onto the course for example.. and possibly help you out for the time missed on the course (if any).
The uni began the disciplinary hearing which is separate from anything to do with lawyers/court etc. If you want to get your own way and you're sure you are right then I'd recommend having a legal expert look at this.
And it just seems that there is more to this than meets the eye... why would they be checking the authentication of her mentor signatures? Because it's the end of her course? Then why would nobody else have any problems but her? They wouldn't randomly accuse her unless they had proper grounds to believe she had done what they say she did? You say she has no previous for anything like this? Hmm, it's easier to offer advice if you have the full picture.
aunty g
The hearing decided, on the "balance of probabilities", that she had forged the signature!
Get a lawyer ASAP.
TheMoonGoat
The burden of proof often lies with the defendant in tort law which I'm sure this would fall under...
Incorrect. Being as this pertains to an internal disciplinary matter (essentially, a tribunal), subject to the jurisdiction and discretion of lay authorities, public law is the most relevant; tort has nothing to do with it, notwithstanding that fraud (which this most closely resembles) is a criminal act.
Tort will only come into play if, and when, she decides to sue the university.
Profesh
Incorrect. Being as this pertains to an internal disciplinary matter (essentially, a tribunal), subject to the jurisdiction and discretion of lay authorities, public law is the most relevant; tort has nothing to do with it, notwithstanding that fraud (which this most closely resembles) is a criminal act.
Tort will only come into play if, and when, she decides to sue the university.
Tort will only come into play if, and when, she decides to sue the university.
If she was removed from her course unfairly then this could well turn into a tort. For she was wronged. So not entirely incorrect because it seems the only way the internal action may be overturned is by an external hearing such as that brought about by a lawyer when she decides she has been (in a sense but not quite) 'unfairly dismissed'.
TheMoonGoat
Edit: Just to clarify, a tort basically means a wrong. If someone is 'wronged' by a person / organisation then they may seek compensation from the wrongdoer to reimburse them for damages incurred such as any losses.
If she wants to sue for pure economic loss, it's her funeral.
Profesh
If she wants to sue for pure economic loss, it's her funeral.
LoL I didn't mean that I was just being slightly condescending and trying to put it as simply as possible for people who know like nothing about it.. and relating it to money and economic loss because that is what most people relate suing to..
TheMoonGoat
If she was removed from her course unfairly then this could well turn into a tort. For she was wronged. So not entirely incorrect because it seems the only way the internal action may be overturned is by an external hearing such as that brought about by a lawyer when she decides she has been (in a sense but not quite) 'unfairly dismissed'.
However; the internal proceedings brought against her by the university do not themselves (per se) invoke tort law, hence that your initial comment:
The burden of proof often lies with the defendant in tort law which I'm sure this would fall under...
Evidently pertaining to her defence in respect of said proceedings, was irrelevant.
Many thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions so far.
Our reason for posting was to try and gather together some other examples of student disciplinary hearings to enable us to compare how the students were treated and what penalties were dished out for what offences. She is about to appeal and needs to get her grounds for appeal submitted by next Tuesday, we feel that if we can demonstrate that the treatment she has received is unfair by showing comparisons with other cases it will help her appeal. So if you can help with other examples please, please get in touch ASAP.
Meanwhile she is seeking legal advice, as well as trying to put a bomb under UNISON to get them to provide better assistance, and doing anything else we can think of to help the case! We appreciate any suggestions that members of this forum can make here.
Like a number of posters, we feel that there is a hidden agenda, but we are not at all clear what that could be. There are two possible reasons why the University have been 'upset' by my niece, but I find it hard to imagine that a University would go to these lengths because of these. They are:
1) That last year she was one of 60 students who signed a letter of complaint about how the course was being organised, which caused a great deal of upset at the time.
And 2) Because she is registered as dyslexic and the university does not want to be seen to be passing dyslexic nurses -- they attempted to refuse her entry on the course in the first place because of her dyslexia and she was told verbally that "we do not have dyslexic nurses".
Unfortunately we have no evidence (other than the harshness of her 'sentence') to support either possibility!
Our reason for posting was to try and gather together some other examples of student disciplinary hearings to enable us to compare how the students were treated and what penalties were dished out for what offences. She is about to appeal and needs to get her grounds for appeal submitted by next Tuesday, we feel that if we can demonstrate that the treatment she has received is unfair by showing comparisons with other cases it will help her appeal. So if you can help with other examples please, please get in touch ASAP.
Meanwhile she is seeking legal advice, as well as trying to put a bomb under UNISON to get them to provide better assistance, and doing anything else we can think of to help the case! We appreciate any suggestions that members of this forum can make here.
Like a number of posters, we feel that there is a hidden agenda, but we are not at all clear what that could be. There are two possible reasons why the University have been 'upset' by my niece, but I find it hard to imagine that a University would go to these lengths because of these. They are:
1) That last year she was one of 60 students who signed a letter of complaint about how the course was being organised, which caused a great deal of upset at the time.
And 2) Because she is registered as dyslexic and the university does not want to be seen to be passing dyslexic nurses -- they attempted to refuse her entry on the course in the first place because of her dyslexia and she was told verbally that "we do not have dyslexic nurses".
Unfortunately we have no evidence (other than the harshness of her 'sentence') to support either possibility!
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