Removing british passports from jihadis Watch

322394
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Is it a good idea to ignore issues surrounding legality and just strip jihadis of british nationality anyway? Is the international law here to protect us or does it just interfere with national sovereignty? Does anyone have a better solution?
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CJKay
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As much as I'd love to be able to just do that, it leaves people with literally no citizenship... which is problematic, to say the least.
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Snagprophet
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(Original post by CJKay)
As much as I'd love to be able to just do that, it leaves people with literally no citizenship... which is problematic, to say the least.
Many of these are duel citizens but for those who aren't there'll be an argument made towards these people as being part of a group like this. We couldn't kick them out but they're already out so it's fine.
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zippity.doodah
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I'd have a very difficult time understanding exactly why we shouldn't
if anybody, be they a native citizen or an immigrant, goes over there and commits acts of terrorism, why should we be comfortable allowing them back in after what they've done?
not only does it show that they are radical to the extent that they will kill for their religion, but it will show that they are probably willing to kill here for similar reasons
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Okorange
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
I'd have a very difficult time understanding exactly why we shouldn't
if anybody, be they a native citizen or an immigrant, goes over there and commits acts of terrorism, why should we be comfortable allowing them back in after what they've done?
not only does it show that they are radical to the extent that they will kill for their religion, but it will show that they are probably willing to kill here for similar reasons
The reason is that the definition of terrorism isn't clear and can be defined many different ways. What if some british citizens went to fight in Ukraine? On the pro-russian side? Or in the ukrainian army? Would you revoke their passports? If you set a precedent like this what is stopping a government from stripping citizenship from a political opponent who "committed terrorist acts"?

Besides what if a few of the potential jihadis were actually pressured into going abroad to fight by friends and relatives and got cold feet there and want to come back? How would you even distinguish that from a hard-core jihadi who is going to use that as an excuse to come back to commit terrorism at home?

Its a bit of a slippery slope.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by 322394)
Is it a good idea to ignore issues surrounding legality and just strip jihadis of british nationality anyway? Is the international law here to protect us or does it just interfere with national sovereignty? Does anyone have a better solution?
This was one of the founding pillars of the UN. It was adopted because it was very easy for men with moustaches to declare that any minority they did not like were no longer citizens and therefore had no rights in the countries in which they were born and had lived all their lives.

There are other solutions.

Firstly the Crown always has had the power to forbid a British citizen from going abroad. It is called Ne Exeat Regno. The power needs reviving and modernising.

Secondly, the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 needs modernising. This makes it a crime to enlist in the army of any foreign state at war with a foreign state at peace with the UK. The Act has many problems and no succesful prosecution was brought during the Spanish civil war. The principle of the Act is sound. It just needs to be made workable.
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democracyforum
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The EU has ruled this is against their human rights and is racist.
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by Okorange)
The reason is that the definition of terrorism isn't clear and can be defined many different ways. What if some british citizens went to fight in Ukraine? On the pro-russian side? Or in the ukrainian army? Would you revoke their passports? If you set a precedent like this what is stopping a government from stripping citizenship from a political opponent who "committed terrorist acts"?

Besides what if a few of the potential jihadis were actually pressured into going abroad to fight by friends and relatives and got cold feet there and want to come back? How would you even distinguish that from a hard-core jihadi who is going to use that as an excuse to come back to commit terrorism at home?

Its a bit of a slippery slope.
if there is evidence that these people, either in ukraine or iraq, are killing innocent people purposely, then I wouldn't see a difference either - but I simply see ISIS as *clearly* worse, and *clearly* more dangerous and delusional; if they came back into this country, our domestic policy would be that it is okay for people to murder innocent people abroad for berserk and horrific purposes - I am not saying what I'm saying because I have an agenda in terms of iraq, I am saying this because obviously there is an obvious danger that letting them back in would make it more likely that radical religious extremists (e.g. the ones that committed crimes such as the rigby murder, 7/7 etc) will be in our society; if we *know* that these people are pretty much just as militant, or even worse, than the killers in those muslim-based murders, then it is absolutely insane to let them back in as if they are not a serious danger to national security. if you *know* that these murderers are trying to come back with their obviously heightened sense of religious delusion geared towards murder and fanaticism, then it makes no sense to open the door back for these people - do you think they deserve it? it's not as if they've been on holiday - allowing these people back into our society would be like putting a rabid dog in a primary school. I'm not saying this on the basis of the ideology that the government should have more power, I am saying this based on the common sense argument that is "if we know that these people are just as dangerous as people that are arrested for terrorism commonly in the UK for very dangerous conspiracies to murder/destruction, then why would we let them back when this obviously puts us in very clear danger of more terrorism in our own country". besides, the members of ISIS from this country may obviously plan to sabotage this country in the events of war between us and the middle eastern "radical" countries (particularly ISIS iraq)- I'm not wanting war, and I think the war in afghanistan should end, but I am simply telling you what is likely if there *was* a war.
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JackB784
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Of course. Why should terrorists be allowed into the country?
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UniOfLife
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As far as I can tell, not allowing a British citizen to enter Britain is illegal and goes against the very essence of what it means to be a citizen. If there is evidence that the person committed a crime then prosecute them. Cameron knows very well that he cannot do this and it's just noise.

The British State should keep on doing what it is doing - arresting and prosecuting those who commit crimes. The responsibility to deal with Islamism is with Muslims. There is nothing the State can do without becoming illiberal.
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Fizzel
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Its also wrong because the punishment for a crime is coming before there has been any trial to establish whether a crime has been committed.

If we want to get rid of them, we should just make them aware they will be coming home to face terror charges. I'm sure plenty of them will stay abroad rather than come back to spend 15 years in prison.
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Okorange
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
if there is evidence that these people, either in ukraine or iraq, are killing innocent people purposely, then I wouldn't see a difference either - but I simply see ISIS as *clearly* worse, and *clearly* more dangerous and delusional; if they came back into this country, our domestic policy would be that it is okay for people to murder innocent people abroad for berserk and horrific purposes - I am not saying what I'm saying because I have an agenda in terms of iraq, I am saying this because obviously there is an obvious danger that letting them back in would make it more likely that radical religious extremists (e.g. the ones that committed crimes such as the rigby murder, 7/7 etc) will be in our society; if we *know* that these people are pretty much just as militant, or even worse, than the killers in those muslim-based murders, then it is absolutely insane to let them back in as if they are not a serious danger to national security. if you *know* that these murderers are trying to come back with their obviously heightened sense of religious delusion geared towards murder and fanaticism, then it makes no sense to open the door back for these people - do you think they deserve it? it's not as if they've been on holiday - allowing these people back into our society would be like putting a rabid dog in a primary school. I'm not saying this on the basis of the ideology that the government should have more power, I am saying this based on the common sense argument that is "if we know that these people are just as dangerous as people that are arrested for terrorism commonly in the UK for very dangerous conspiracies to murder/destruction, then why would we let them back when this obviously puts us in very clear danger of more terrorism in our own country". besides, the members of ISIS from this country may obviously plan to sabotage this country in the events of war between us and the middle eastern "radical" countries (particularly ISIS iraq)- I'm not wanting war, and I think the war in afghanistan should end, but I am simply telling you what is likely if there *was* a war.
I agree that ISIS is more dangerous to society than say someone who decided to fight in Ukraine.

You can't just systematically deny them ability to return because the reality is its not black and white. Some may honestly have been pressured abroad by family and friends and others may have joined ISIS for the purpose of fighting Assad rather than for the purpose of establishing an Islamic Caliphate.

I agree with what the government is doing, which is legislating that border officials can seize someone's passport to investigate them is a good thing. You can't shut the gates entirely, and you also can't keep them open but you should investigate them and interrogate them.
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The Right
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It is brilliant, take their citizenship so these ******* can never come back
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MindTheGaps
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I'm very against this.

Whatever else they are, if they are British citizens they are entitled to British justice. Arrest them at the airport and try the *******s for treason.
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the north
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if they truly committed terrorist act then arrest him in airport then take them to trail, that way you can distinguish between actual terrorist and people fighting alongside FSA etc and charity workers etc and that isnt illegal
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hxneybun
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If you were a true British citizen, you wouldn't go to a foreign country and plan to kill other British people by blowing up parts of Britain. Living near Central London, these threats are actually ridiculously scary to me. But it's quite upsetting because I know a number of Muslim people that are so lovely, and now because of this, people of the Islamic faith of being prejudiced against.
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Fizzel
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(Original post by Lord Baelish)
If you tell them this then they'd just come back and commit a terrorist attack or do a 9/11 copycat attack. Why would they return to face 15 years in prison when they can die a hero in Allah's eyes and kill loads of infidels?.
How are they going to do that when the authorities will be waiting to pick them up the second they get off the plane?




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Snagprophet
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(Original post by democracyforum)
The EU has ruled this is against their human rights and is racist.
Only a moron would call this racist.
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democracyforum
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
Only a moron would call this racist.
Welcome to the EU
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Apocrypha
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(Original post by Okorange)
The reason is that the definition of terrorism isn't clear and can be defined many different ways. What if some british citizens went to fight in Ukraine? On the pro-russian side? Or in the ukrainian army? Would you revoke their passports? If you set a precedent like this what is stopping a government from stripping citizenship from a political opponent who "committed terrorist acts"?

Besides what if a few of the potential jihadis were actually pressured into going abroad to fight by friends and relatives and got cold feet there and want to come back? How would you even distinguish that from a hard-core jihadi who is going to use that as an excuse to come back to commit terrorism at home?

Its a bit of a slippery slope.
I think if both sides of the Ukrainian conflict posed a terrorist threat to the UK, then people would be wanting the same, however neither side has beheaded a journalist on camera and screamed hatred of the west quite as much as British ISIS members.
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