Matas411
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whats going on?
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Potally_Tissed
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I have no idea. If only there were websites dedicated to reporting news and current affairs that we could consult. Report back if you manage to find out?

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DErasmus
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Russia is exploting political instability in Ukraine in a clever way, it is claiming that the Ukranian government, the result of a violent coup d'etat represents a significant risk to the Russian population of Eastern Ukraine therefore using it as an oppurtunist way of expanding its borders, this has been supported by various groups in Russia and has kept Russias own political system fairly stable, evidence for this is the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine and the persistent reference to Ukranians as basically Russians, he (Putin) is playing on nationalist sentiment to justify expansion to resist potential European influence from the Pro EU Ukrainian government. It has slightly backfired with the shooting down of the plane by the rebels, but the realpolitik is still in play.
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JJXX212
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(Original post by Potally_Tissed)
I have no idea. If only there were websites dedicated to reporting news and current affairs that we could consult. Report back if you manage to find out?

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Vice New's "Russian Roulette" dispatch series have been providing raw, up to date footage of the conflict in Ukraine since the initial revolution.

Definitely would recommend. Also have a lot of respect for the main reporter Simon Ostrovsky. He was actually kidnapped, interrogated and then released by separatist forces and went straight back to documenting the conflict.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1K6...d_PVwbOCDO472B
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reciproversexclu
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(Original post by DErasmus)
Russia is exploting political instability in Ukraine in a clever way, it is claiming that the Ukranian government, the result of a violent coup d'etat represents a significant risk to the Russian population of Eastern Ukraine therefore using it as an oppurtunist way of expanding its borders, this has been supported by various groups in Russia and has kept Russias own political system fairly stable, evidence for this is the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine and the persistent reference to Ukranians as basically Russians, he (Putin) is playing on nationalist sentiment to justify expansion to resist potential European influence from the Pro EU Ukrainian government. It has slightly backfired with the shooting down of the plane by the rebels, but the realpolitik is still in play.
Most of the above is refuted here:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/...comment-325259

Try looking around nearby and you might learn:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=2816427
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DErasmus
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(Original post by reciproversexclu)
Most of the above is refuted here:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/...comment-325259

Try looking around nearby and you might learn:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=2816427
None of what I posted was actually refuted by what you posted. I am Pro Russian and everything i've said seems completely consistent with observations and the information we have. The West exploit Russia through its support of oligarchs and Ukranian crisis was caused by a desire for EU expansion.
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reciproversexclu
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(Original post by DErasmus)
None of what I posted was actually refuted by what you posted. I am Pro Russian and everything i've said seems completely consistent with observations and the information we have. The West exploit Russia through its support of oligarchs and Ukranian crisis was caused by a desire for EU expansion.
The first link I posted is headed "Russia's Leader Putin Rejects Ukrainian Separatists' Aim to Become Part of Russia" which hardly endorses your
" therefore using it as an oppurtunist way of expanding its borders..." and
"he (Putin) is playing on nationalist sentiment to justify expansion" ,
and flight MH17 it has not been proven " It has slightly backfired with the shooting down of the plane by the rebels" , the West seemed to have stopped pimping that.

I am not pro Russian nor pro West just interested in people knowing the truth and not being manipulated.
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JohnPaul_
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EU sets the stage for an overthrowing.

Ukraine does so.

Russia reacts.

West blames Russia.


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DErasmus
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(Original post by reciproversexclu)
The first link I posted is headed "Russia's Leader Putin Rejects Ukrainian Separatists' Aim to Become Part of Russia" which hardly endorses your
" therefore using it as an oppurtunist way of expanding its borders..." and
"he (Putin) is playing on nationalist sentiment to justify expansion" ,
and flight MH17 it has not been proven " It has slightly backfired with the shooting down of the plane by the rebels" , the West seemed to have stopped pimping that.

I am not pro Russian nor pro West just interested in people knowing the truth and not being manipulated.
So because Putin says so it must be true. Common sense not so common.
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Anonymous263
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(Original post by Matas411)
whats going on?
Listen to the John bachelor show podcast with professor Stephen cohen it's up every Wednesday Google it. Also look up professor Stephen cohen on YouTube.
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reciproversexclu
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(Original post by DErasmus)
So because Putin says so it must be true. Common sense not so common.
So it is your word against Putin's then ??
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Rakas21
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Matas411)
whats going on?
Basically the EU wanted Ukraine to develop closer links, Russia wanted Ukraine to join its customs union. Ukranian president agreed to join the Russian one and thereby reject the EU. EU supports mass protests occurring which result in a VoNC against the president and the opposition comes to power. Russia then annexes Crimea. Pro EU president gets voted for. Civil proxy war occurs in eastern Ukraine with the west arming the Ukraine and Russia arming the rebels. Rebels shoot down flight. Sanctions war begins.

Basically you have 2 powers who are both expansionist fighting over Ukraine.

Hard to say whether Russia will win the day in the east but I've no doubt that the west will win the bulk of Ukraine.

The sanctions war though gas would annoy many only has one winner and capital flight is already doing damage in Russia.
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Pindar
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Russia isn't interested in "expanding its borders". It wants to keep Ukraine within its sphere of influence, like it always has been. It wasn't that long ago they were part of the same country, like Scotland is to England.
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Pindar
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Also, being part of a trade deal with EU and with Russia was never mutually exclusive, until the EU decided it had to be.

Russia never annexed Crimea. The Crimean people had a referendum and the democratic result meant it seceded from Ukraine. Much like Scotland almost did last week
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Aj12
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(Original post by Pindar)
Also, being part of a trade deal with EU and with Russia was never mutually exclusive, until the EU decided it had to be.

Russia never annexed Crimea. The Crimean people had a referendum and the democratic result meant it seceded from Ukraine. Much like Scotland almost did last week
A democratic vote requires a free and fair election that does not return a bizarre 97% result.
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castlemadeofsand
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Just to point out to anyone that hasn't looked at the opposing terms of the Customs Union offer and the EU offer that beyond the loyalties he may have felt towards Russia, that Yanukovych rejected the EU agreement because he felt that politically he would not survive the outcome. The strict agreement demanded amongst other things, an end to fuel subsidies that allowed the average Ukrainian to afford heat in the brutal winter months and foreign access to its huge agricultural resources.

Also, when we constantly talk of 'Russian efforts to destabilize the country' lets not forget the 5 billion dollars 'gifted' by the US Department of State top the Ukrainian opposition as well as the appearances of Victoria Nuland and John McCain on the streets of Kiev handing out bread and encouraging the unrest.

Imagine the collective media outrage and accusations of provocation if senior Iranian politicians descended on the tense streets of Bahrain handing out bread to the repressed Shia minorities and encouraging their anger?

(Original post by Aj12)
A democratic vote requires a free and fair election that does not return a bizarre 97% result.
Maybe if you want to follow obviously erroneous reporting that painted it as such to adhere to a particular narrative of "only western endorsed elections are free and fair." But if you wanted to be an objective observer of events you might recognize the fact that the unwilling populations of Tatars and Ukrainian nationalistic minded people realized that they were in the minority and boycotted the referendum and refused to participate, thereby leaving the majority who were willing to vote by an absolute landslide.
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Aj12
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(Original post by castlemadeofsand)
Just to point out to anyone that hasn't looked at the opposing terms of the Customs Union offer and the EU offer that beyond the loyalties he may have felt towards Russia, that Yanukovych rejected the EU agreement because he felt that politically he would not survive the outcome. The strict agreement demanded amongst other things, an end to fuel subsidies that allowed the average Ukrainian to afford heat in the brutal winter months and foreign access to its huge agricultural resources.

Also, when we constantly talk of 'Russian efforts to destabilize the country' lets not forget the 5 billion dollars 'gifted' by the US Department of State top the Ukrainian opposition as well as the appearances of Victoria Nuland and John McCain on the streets of Kiev handing out bread and encouraging the unrest.

Imagine the collective media outrage and accusations of provocation if senior Iranian politicians descended on the tense streets of Bahrain handing out bread to the repressed Shia minorities and encouraging their anger?



Maybe if you want to follow obviously erroneous reporting that painted it as such to adhere to a particular narrative of "only western endorsed elections are free and fair." But if you wanted to be an objective observer of events you might recognize the fact that the unwilling populations of Tatars and Ukrainian nationalistic minded people realized that they were in the minority and boycotted the referendum and refused to participate, thereby leaving the majority who were willing to vote by an absolute landslide.
Could you please point to where I claimed only western elections are free and fair? Thanks.

The idea that an election of 83% of a population could return a vote in the high 90's on such an important issue is laughable. especially when there were reports of fraud and other dodgy practises. Do you have any sources showing a widespread boycott amongst those groups?
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GnomeMage
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#18
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I remember reading somewhere saying that during the collapse of USSR , the west agreed to never step across ukraine and keep ukraine a neutral country , to substitute east germany.

To have ukarine joining the EU clearly violates that and russia obviously gets pissed off.
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DaniilKaya
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Aj12)
A democratic vote requires a free and fair election that does not return a bizarre 97% result.

97% is "unusual" so it is not democratic

Let me tell you the reason why Crimean people will not come back to Ukraine.... This is because western media will never find any protests about "annexation" in Crimea
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DaniilKaya
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(Original post by Aj12)
Could you please point to where I claimed only western elections are free and fair? Thanks.

The idea that an election of 83% of a population could return a vote in the high 90's on such an important issue is laughable. especially when there were reports of fraud and other dodgy practises. Do you have any sources showing a widespread boycott amongst those groups?
Also let me tell you why western media is a war propaganda

10 principles of War Propaganda by Lord Arthur Ponsonby of Shulbrede

1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves " NATO announced that it is going to create the Rapid reaction force", "USA has been setting up the missile defense in Europe for decades"
2. The other guy is the sole responsible for this war -"Russia"
3. Our adversary's leader is evil and looks evil - "Russia and Putin is homophobic, 40% of Russia thinks that homosexuality is illness - in Vatican 100%"
4. We are defending a noble purpose, not special interest " USA and EU "created" democracy in middle east and now bombing it"
5. The enemy is purposefully causing atrocities; we only commit mistakes
6. The enemy is using unlawful weapons " Saddam Hussein has chemical weapons lets send soldiers - the result is dead Hussein and no chemical weapons as Iraq declared weaponry embargo for years before
7. We have very little losses, the enemy is losing big "Separatists were winning the war from the July - the message of Minister of Internal affairs to President Poroshenko shows that Ukraine army,in that week, lost literally 70-80 times more soldiers than separatists
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause -
9. Our cause is sacred
10. Those who doubt our propaganda are traitors "Absolutely no opposition media in USA and UK"
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