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TSR General Election September 2014 – VOTE HERE! watch

  • View Poll Results: Cast your vote in the TSR General Election:
    TSR Conservative & Unionist Party
    104
    16.64%
    TSR Green Party
    157
    25.12%
    TSR Liberal Party
    57
    9.12%
    TSR UKIP
    88
    14.08%
    TSR Socialist Party
    58
    9.28%
    Matthew_Lowson, Independent
    14
    2.24%
    TSR Labour Party
    109
    17.44%
    TSR Libertarian Party
    20
    3.20%
    Spoilt Ballot
    18
    2.88%

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    (Original post by Blue Meltwater)
    I wonder how prevalent it is? I really can't imagine my views suddenly lurching to the right the moment I pay tax, but it is true I have no direct experience of full time work.
    Its not an overnight thing but in my experience once people have got above about 15k they've become much more concerned with future tax and spend to the point that of 4 close friends who were raging socialists around 18, only 1 is today (limited sample I know).

    Quite logical though when you consider that most socialists are poor or educated students. Once you get passed the point where bills and rent are an issue you'll be more bothered about getting on the property ladder or whether your going to end up hitting that 40% threshold and at that point you fall into the political trap whereby you have a mortgage and suddenly see government taking your money for services your not using and benefits your no longer receiving while you want to upgrade your Vauxhall to a Mercedes.
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    (Original post by Blue Meltwater)
    Surely any socialist worth their salt would have an awareness of current income tax levels? Or would appreciate that the state doesn't simply suck up the income into a black hole but instead returns it to society through public services, etc? Is the greed for money really so addictive to make many people abandon their values? Genuine questions...
    I'm not sure. I have worked for quite a few years, and I've never minded paying my taxes. Perhaps I am weird, but I like contributing to society - even if I am not that keen on some of the things that my tiny share of the collective pot may be used for, such as unnecessary wars.

    It seems that the older I get, the more left-leaning I become. I like the NHS, I like that we look after people, whether it's because of a disability or physical/mental health problems, or because of unemployment. Everyone should be entitled to dignity, respect and security. If my taxes can help achieve that, good. I don't want to live in a society that demonises the poor and abandons those in need...
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    (Original post by Blue Meltwater)
    Surely any socialist worth their salt would have an awareness of current income tax levels? Or would appreciate that the state doesn't simply suck up the income into a black hole but instead returns it to society through public services, etc? Is the greed for money really so addictive to make many people abandon their values? Genuine questions...
    That's just it though, a lot of socialists in university are not worth their salt. They may well be nice people who want a cause, but its like a fashion statement.

    Very few people in university (in certain faculties anyway) intend to stay relatively poor and the champagne socialists especially will go native as soon as any policy may effect their parents or themselves.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Its not an overnight thing but in my experience once people have got above about 15k they've become much more concerned with future tax and spend to the point that of 4 close friends who were raging socialists around 18, only 1 is today (limited sample I know).

    Quite logical though when you consider that most socialists are poor or educated students. Once you get passed the point where bills and rent are an issue you'll be more bothered about getting on the property ladder or whether your going to end up hitting that 40% threshold and at that point you fall into the political trap whereby you have a mortgage and suddenly see government taking your money for services your not using and benefits your no longer receiving while you want to upgrade your Vauxhall to a Mercedes.
    I've seen the reverse happen too. Constantly moaning about the welfare state and how their hard earned money is going to scroungers. How it is easy to claim and make a good living.

    The government takes their money to pay for things they won't use whilst they dream of owning a Merc rather than a Vauxhall.

    Then, one day, something goes badly wrong - they become dependant on the wealfare state and all of a sudden their attitude changes.

    It goes both ways. Some lefty types will one day earn money and find that actually the most important thing to them is driving a more expensive car rather than things like the Police, NHS and welfare and stuff. And others on the right will have the mis-fortune of making the reverse transformation.
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    that that
    (Original post by Kittiara)
    I'm not sure. I have worked for quite a few years, and I've never minded paying my taxes. Perhaps I am weird, but I like contributing to society - even if I am not that keen on some of the things that my tiny share of the collective pot may be used for, such as unnecessary wars.

    It seems that the older I get, the more left-leaning I become. I like the NHS, I like that we look after people, whether it's because of a disability or physical/mental health problems, or because of unemployment. Everyone should be entitled to dignity, respect and security. If my taxes can help achieve that, good. I don't want to live in a society that demonises the poor and abandons those in need...
    Interestingly I worked before uni and was far more right wing. Studying Economics has certainly affirmed my belief in the market over government but I think its taught me pragmatism and made me more socially liberal.

    As for your experience im certainly not saying that everybody moves hard right and wants the NHS and welfare a abolished but I do think a lot of people move from Marxism to a kinder capitalism.
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
    I'm not sure. I have worked for quite a few years, and I've never minded paying my taxes. Perhaps I am weird, but I like contributing to society - even if I am not that keen on some of the things that my tiny share of the collective pot may be used for, such as unnecessary wars.

    It seems that the older I get, the more left-leaning I become. I like the NHS, I like that we look after people, whether it's because of a disability or physical/mental health problems, or because of unemployment. Everyone should be entitled to dignity, respect and security. If my taxes can help achieve that, good. I don't want to live in a society that demonises the poor and abandons those in need...
    Good on you. :borat:

    I am the same in that I like to know I am contributing. When I think about it, I have a fairly decent standard of living considering the fact that some of what I earn is going to help the less fortunate and keep great institutions running.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Did you start paying tax, it's always interesting to see socialists suddenly jump.

    (Original post by Blue Meltwater)
    I wonder how prevalent it is? I really can't imagine my views suddenly lurching to the right the moment I pay tax, but it is true I have no direct experience of full time work.
    Its because half of the people pretend to be socialist/social democrats whilst at university with no idea as to what it entails. Wearing their nice designer clothes while talking about wealth inequality then abandon ship and become grumpy self centred people when they realise what they actually stood for.

    I'll be red till I'm dead or at least for a while. Funnily enough my two biggest influences were an aged Marxist and a old trade unionist.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I've seen the reverse happen too. Constantly moaning about the welfare state and how their hard earned money is going to scroungers. How it is easy to claim and make a good living.

    The government takes their money to pay for things they won't use whilst they dream of owning a Merc rather than a Vauxhall.

    Then, one day, something goes badly wrong - they become dependant on the wealfare state and all of a sudden their attitude changes.

    It goes both ways. Some lefty types will one day earn money and find that actually the most important thing to them is driving a more expensive car rather than things like the Police, NHS and welfare and stuff. And others on the right will have the mis-fortune of making the reverse transformation.
    Aye of course. I suppose this is why a soft capitalism would probably be more popular than turning us into the USA or Norway.

    Being poor and having worked myself I feel lucky that I have life experience to back my views. While supportive of less tax and spend I'd vote against a government killing the NHS and I think IDS is the worst minister the UK has ever had, he's truly an idiot.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)

    Interestingly I worked before uni and was far more right wing. Studying Economics has certainly affirmed my belief in the market over government but I think its taught me pragmatism and made me more socially liberal.

    As for your experience im certainly not saying that everybody moves hard right and wants the NHS and welfare a abolished but I do think a lot of people move from Marxism to a kinder capitalism.
    Aye, I've seen it happen. My sister, for example, is more of a capitalist. Perhaps it's because I don't really value having lots of stuff. I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back - it's just that I don't care about having a fancy car, or the latest technology. I've never seen the point in spending lots of money on designer clothes or felt the need to have a pool. The stuff I like and value is relatively cheap - books, some DVD box sets, and where other women have a thing for shoes and handbags, I like socks and snuggly hoodies.

    I guess that when your needs aren't expensive, it's easier to make your money stretch and it makes very little sense to get worked up about some of my money going to people who are down on their luck. Or, indeed, resent them when they might want to spend some of that money on something that brightens their day, like food for a pet, or a bar of chocolate, or a pint. Goodness knows that life can be miserable when you're skint, so a bit of cheer is important.

    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Good on you. :borat:

    I am the same in that I like to know I am contributing. When I think about it, I have a fairly decent standard of living considering the fact that some of what I earn is going to help the less fortunate and keep great institutions running.
    Aye, I feel the same way. I'm not wealthy, but I can't complain. I have a roof over my head, food on the table, more books than I currently have shelves for, and I live in a lovely little place. I'd like everyone to have a decent standard of living. And though it's not my main consideration, I like to know that if, one day, I need support, it's there. After all, you never know what will happen in the future.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That's just it though, a lot of socialists in university are not worth their salt. They may well be nice people who want a cause, but its like a fashion statement.

    Very few people in university (in certain faculties anyway) intend to stay relatively poor and the champagne socialists especially will go native as soon as any policy may effect their parents or themselves.
    Yeah, I'd agree there are lots of people like that. Although that reminds me of a comment made by Iain Banks who said he couldn't understand why having great personal wealth and wanting other people to have great personal wealth are somehow seen as incompatible.

    (Original post by Kittiara)
    I'm not sure. I have worked for quite a few years, and I've never minded paying my taxes. Perhaps I am weird, but I like contributing to society - even if I am not that keen on some of the things that my tiny share of the collective pot may be used for, such as unnecessary wars.
    That's the attitude I expect to have. I suppose I'll have to report back in a few years to confirm I haven't become a raving Tory before I can say for sure.
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    To me, I think any shift is less about Tax - though that undoubtedly has a role - and is more simply about how businesses function.

    I work for a fairly small business - when I joined I was about the 7th or 8th employee. Now, a few years later, we have closer to 40. We used to share an office with another company, and now we're expanding beyond our own office, having to jam new tables and chairs in places they probably shouldn't go! It's been very exciting, and it's amazing seeing my boss - the guy who owns the company - and his drive to make it a success. He has put a lot of his own money in the company and personally took a huge pay cut - I'm sure over the last few years since he decided to start the company, if he'd opted to remain as a salaried employee where he was, he'd have earned huge, huge amounts more than he has. I respect what he decided to do hugely, to give up the safety and security of a regular pay cheque and try to start his own business. By doing so, he's employed a bunch of people including myself, he's bought a load of equipment and software from other companies and suppliers, we have single handedly kept our local pub in business and we do it all whilst having fun. And the really interesting thing? All this goodness, all this worth and all this economic activity came out of a single-minded profit motive - he wants to make money and he sees this as the best way. Call it greed, if you want, but that's how it is. Furthermore, my colleagues and I all work very well together with a basically shared vision, and we work really well with other companies - so please don't let anyone tell you that only the left cares about working together for the greater good or that we can accomplish more together than we can apart - au contraire! It's precisely by working together in mutual pursuit of profit that one really sees what can be accomplished, and we're constantly forced to up our game to compete with other companies in the same market place.

    And of course, he only employs me because he gets more money from me that he pays me - what a greedy *******, stealing my labour like that! - and yet my life has improved demonstrably as a result. I call that a win-win!
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    To me, I think any shift is less about Tax - though that undoubtedly has a role - and is more simply about how businesses function.

    I work for a fairly small business - when I joined I was about the 7th or 8th employee. Now, a few years later, we have closer to 40. We used to share an office with another company, and now we're expanding beyond our own office, having to jam new tables and chairs in places they probably shouldn't go! It's been very exciting, and it's amazing seeing my boss - the guy who owns the company - and his drive to make it a success. He has put a lot of his own money in the company and personally took a huge pay cut - I'm sure over the last few years since he decided to start the company, if he'd opted to remain as a salaried employee where he was, he'd have earned huge, huge amounts more than he has. I respect what he decided to do hugely, to give up the safety and security of a regular pay cheque and try to start his own business. By doing so, he's employed a bunch of people including myself, he's bought a load of equipment and software from other companies and suppliers, we have single handedly kept our local pub in business and we do it all whilst having fun. And the really interesting thing? All this goodness, all this worth and all this economic activity came out of a single-minded profit motive - he wants to make money and he sees this as the best way. Call it greed, if you want, but that's how it is. Furthermore, my colleagues and I all work very well together with a basically shared vision, and we work really well with other companies - so please don't let anyone tell you that only the left cares about working together for the greater good or that we can accomplish more together than we can apart - au contraire! It's precisely by working together in mutual pursuit of profit that one really sees what can be accomplished, and we're constantly forced to up our game to compete with other companies in the same market place.

    And of course, he only employs me because he gets more money from me that he pays me - what a greedy *******, stealing my labour like that! - and yet my life has improved demonstrably as a result. I call that a win-win!
    As if the Labour party would ever declare itself anti-business.
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    I've voted for UKIP, every single issue on their TSR manifesto I agree with.

    But one thing is, I can't understand the obsession with devolution. I want more powers for a strong central government in London, not less. Devolution has been a disaster for this country, and nearly led to the break up of the union with Scotland. Devolving powers to Northern assemblies will just mean eventual independence and socialist republics in the North. I just can't understand this obsession. Educated people in London know best for Welsh, Scottish and Northern people, who would deliver unsustainable large welfare states which would need to be bailed out.

    The less immigration the better, certainly in terms of low skilled migrants.

    Agree with the Tories on defence however. I'd increase defence spending by at least 25%, I'd never vote for a party that got rid of Nuclear Weapons. I want more Nukes not less. We need the ultimate deterrent. Health, Education and Defence are the most important three departments.

    I feel we can't solve most of our problems until we leave the EU. So much lefty greeny typical student nonsense on here. I'm a university student, but most disagree with me.

    Who are the TSR Government at the moment?
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    (Original post by Eboracum)
    I've voted for UKIP, every single issue on their TSR manifesto I agree with.

    But one thing is, I can't understand the obsession with devolution. I want more powers for a strong central government in London, not less. Devolution has been a disaster for this country, and nearly led to the break up of the union with Scotland. Devolving powers to Northern assemblies will just mean eventual independence and socialist republics in the North. I just can't understand this obsession. Educated people in London know best for Welsh, Scottish and Northern people, who would deliver unsustainable large welfare states which would need to be bailed out.

    The less immigration the better, certainly in terms of low skilled migrants.

    Agree with the Tories on defence however. I'd increase defence spending by at least 25%, I'd never vote for a party that got rid of Nuclear Weapons. I want more Nukes not less. We need the ultimate deterrent. Health, Education and Defence are the most important three departments.

    I feel we can't solve most of our problems until we leave the EU. So much lefty greeny typical student nonsense on here. I'm a university student, but most disagree with me.

    Who are the TSR Government at the moment?
    Labour-Socialist-Green at the moment. Hopefully the Tories will be returned to power though.
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    (Original post by Eboracum)
    I've voted for UKIP, every single issue on their TSR manifesto I agree with.

    But one thing is, I can't understand the obsession with devolution. I want more powers for a strong central government in London, not less. Devolution has been a disaster for this country, and nearly led to the break up of the union with Scotland. Devolving powers to Northern assemblies will just mean eventual independence and socialist republics in the North. I just can't understand this obsession. Educated people in London know best for Welsh, Scottish and Northern people, who would deliver unsustainable large welfare states which would need to be bailed out.

    The less immigration the better, certainly in terms of low skilled migrants.

    Agree with the Tories on defence however. I'd increase defence spending by at least 25%, I'd never vote for a party that got rid of Nuclear Weapons. I want more Nukes not less. We need the ultimate deterrent. Health, Education and Defence are the most important three departments.

    I feel we can't solve most of our problems until we leave the EU. So much lefty greeny typical student nonsense on here. I'm a university student, but most disagree with me.

    Who are the TSR Government at the moment?

    Thanks for your vote. Have you considered joining TSR UKIP? Click the link in my sig to do so

    Any move to increase defence spending would have the support of UKIP, we absolutely believe that the UK must have nuclear weapons. I agree with you on devolution, If I had my way the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly would never have been created.
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    If you vote for any of them you might as well ask for a Games of Thrones style parliament.
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    where is the libertarian party manifesto ?
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    (Original post by ukip72)
    Thanks for your vote. Have you considered joining TSR UKIP? Click the link in my sig to do so

    Any move to increase defence spending would have the support of UKIP, we absolutely believe that the UK must have nuclear weapons. I agree with you on devolution, If I had my way the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly would never have been created.
    Hello. Thanks for your message. It's just music to my ears. I strongly agree with both points you mentioned. I get frustrated here at university when 99% of students think the views above are extremist/racist. It's not it's simply sensible. We need Nuclear Weapons (and lots of them) in an era of your Iran's, North Korea's and even Russia's/China's. A person on my degree course said to me yesterday "An English man's view of devolution is irrelevant". I thought outrageous, I'll take away his devolution, strip away the bureaucrats and govern from London as it should be done.

    Out of interest, what is your view on the so called "English Question". Devolution is a disaster, but it is here to stay now I fear, so for me it is very simple, you just have English MPs turn up to when English only matters are debated in Parliament. Any talk of a new Parliament, 150 new English MPs and an "English first Minister" is just bureaucratic nonsense which I'm bitterly opposed to.

    How do UKIP do on here? Presumably no chance of government, but perhaps a coalition with the Conservatives?
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    (Original post by Eboracum)
    Hello. Thanks for your message. It's just music to my ears. I strongly agree with both points you mentioned. I get frustrated here at university when 99% of students think the views above are extremist/racist. It's not it's simply sensible. We need Nuclear Weapons (and lots of them) in an era of your Iran's, North Korea's and even Russia's/China's. A person on my degree course said to me yesterday "An English man's view of devolution is irrelevant". I thought outrageous, I'll take away his devolution, strip away the bureaucrats and govern from London as it should be done.

    Out of interest, what is your view on the so called "English Question". Devolution is a disaster, but it is here to stay now I fear, so for me it is very simple, you just have English MPs turn up to when English only matters are debated in Parliament. Any talk of a new Parliament, 150 new English MPs and an "English first Minister" is just bureaucratic nonsense which I'm bitterly opposed to.

    How do UKIP do on here? Presumably no chance of government, but perhaps a coalition with the Conservatives?
    Ukip have peaked at 6 seats in recent elections (out of 50) and have often supported our governments.
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    (Original post by Eboracum)
    Hello. Thanks for your message. It's just music to my ears. I strongly agree with both points you mentioned. I get frustrated here at university when 99% of students think the views above are extremist/racist. It's not it's simply sensible. We need Nuclear Weapons (and lots of them) in an era of your Iran's, North Korea's and even Russia's/China's. A person on my degree course said to me yesterday "An English man's view of devolution is irrelevant". I thought outrageous, I'll take away his devolution, strip away the bureaucrats and govern from London as it should be done.

    Out of interest, what is your view on the so called "English Question". Devolution is a disaster, but it is here to stay now I fear, so for me it is very simple, you just have English MPs turn up to when English only matters are debated in Parliament. Any talk of a new Parliament, 150 new English MPs and an "English first Minister" is just bureaucratic nonsense which I'm bitterly opposed to.

    How do UKIP do on here? Presumably no chance of government, but perhaps a coalition with the Conservatives?
    Since devolution is sadly here to stay I think allowing only English MP's to vote on English laws is the right thing to do.

    As Rakas points out UKIP have won 6 seats at the past couple of elections and have been in government with the Tories several times, we hope to win more seats in this election. As I say, you'd be very welcome to join our party.
 
 
 
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