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Why help the Kurds but not the palestinians?
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If you go back to the 1980s, and even further back, actually, Western governments didn't care about the Kurds. In the 1980s, both Britain and the United States supported Saddam Hussein. When he gassed the Kurds, most famously at Hajabja in 1988, the US didn't do anything. In fact, they engaged in propaganda, defending Saddam and saying that it was the Iranians who carried out the attack, when they knew that it was Saddam himself.
Western governments now care about the Kurds in large part because they have control of many strategic resources, including oilfields. In fact, it wasn't until IS were threatening the Kurdish-controlled oilfields that they actually intervened.
The Palestinians, meanwhile, are unworthy victims in the eyes of Western governments. Whether it's because of a very powerful lobby in the United States, guilt over the Holocaust, trade, or a combination of many different factors, they seem to think that the consistent violation of international law by the Israeli government is fine. Western governments have abstained and vetoed any call for Israel to end their illegal occupation and annexation of Palestinian land.
While many European countries, and even the U.S., are starting to see the truth about Israel, it'll be a long time before any real help is given to the Palestinians (i.e. agreeing to the international consensus on the two-state solution supported by the President of Palestine but rejected by the Obama Administration and the Israeli government.)
Hamas were democratically elected in free and fair elections. After an attempted coup supported by the West, they "seized" power. This was after multiple attempts to establish diplomatic relations with both European countries and the United States. These all failed because these countries either didn't reply, or conitnued with their boycott of the Gaza Strip anyway. So to claim that the UK government "didn't care" is fallacious - they cared a great deal about subverting the democratic process.
Also, the reason Palestinians live in fear and ruin is because, as the United Nations and other independent human rights organisations have documented, Israel, in its periodic massacres, deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, thereby making Palestinians dependent on Israel, and keeping them under de facto occupation. This recent war, moreover, was started by Israel. Israel themselves admitted that Hamas had not broken the 2012 ceasefire once. It was actually Israel who have broken the ceasefire multiple times from 2012-2014, culminating in assassinations of Hamas officials in Gaza which started the war, after having presided over the unlawful mass arrest of hundreds of Hamas political officials in the West Bank.
If the fear is due to Hamas, how do you explain, for example, the destruction el-Bader flour mill, which occurred on 9th January 2009, and the mill itself was then occupied until 13th January. It had no combatants within it, and the consequences were severe: the capacity of Gaza to produce milled flour, the most basic staple ingredient of the local diet, has been greatly diminished. The population of Gaza is now largely dependent on the Israeli authorities' granting permission for flour and bread to enter the Gaza Strip. As a UN report concluded: "The nature of the strikes on the mill and in particular the precise targeting of crucial machinery on one of the mid-level floors suggests that the intention was to disable its productive capacity. There appears to be no plausible justification for the extensive damage to the flour mill if the sole objective was to take control of the building. It thus appears that the only purpose was to put an end to the production of flour in the Gaza Strip."
How do you explain the hundreds of testimonies by Israeli soldiers in Breaking the Silence, who attest to war crimes including the indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment inflicted upon the Palestinian people, and the deliberate destruction of Palestinian property?
Western governments now care about the Kurds in large part because they have control of many strategic resources, including oilfields. In fact, it wasn't until IS were threatening the Kurdish-controlled oilfields that they actually intervened.
The Palestinians, meanwhile, are unworthy victims in the eyes of Western governments. Whether it's because of a very powerful lobby in the United States, guilt over the Holocaust, trade, or a combination of many different factors, they seem to think that the consistent violation of international law by the Israeli government is fine. Western governments have abstained and vetoed any call for Israel to end their illegal occupation and annexation of Palestinian land.
While many European countries, and even the U.S., are starting to see the truth about Israel, it'll be a long time before any real help is given to the Palestinians (i.e. agreeing to the international consensus on the two-state solution supported by the President of Palestine but rejected by the Obama Administration and the Israeli government.)
Original post by felamaslen
The reason Palestinians live in fear and ruin in Gaza is the Hamas government and affiliated organisations.
A much better complaint would be this: why does the UK government care about helping Kurds, when it didn't care when Hamasseized power over the Gaza strip in 2006?
A much better complaint would be this: why does the UK government care about helping Kurds, when it didn't care when Hamas
Hamas were democratically elected in free and fair elections. After an attempted coup supported by the West, they "seized" power. This was after multiple attempts to establish diplomatic relations with both European countries and the United States. These all failed because these countries either didn't reply, or conitnued with their boycott of the Gaza Strip anyway. So to claim that the UK government "didn't care" is fallacious - they cared a great deal about subverting the democratic process.
Also, the reason Palestinians live in fear and ruin is because, as the United Nations and other independent human rights organisations have documented, Israel, in its periodic massacres, deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, thereby making Palestinians dependent on Israel, and keeping them under de facto occupation. This recent war, moreover, was started by Israel. Israel themselves admitted that Hamas had not broken the 2012 ceasefire once. It was actually Israel who have broken the ceasefire multiple times from 2012-2014, culminating in assassinations of Hamas officials in Gaza which started the war, after having presided over the unlawful mass arrest of hundreds of Hamas political officials in the West Bank.
If the fear is due to Hamas, how do you explain, for example, the destruction el-Bader flour mill, which occurred on 9th January 2009, and the mill itself was then occupied until 13th January. It had no combatants within it, and the consequences were severe: the capacity of Gaza to produce milled flour, the most basic staple ingredient of the local diet, has been greatly diminished. The population of Gaza is now largely dependent on the Israeli authorities' granting permission for flour and bread to enter the Gaza Strip. As a UN report concluded: "The nature of the strikes on the mill and in particular the precise targeting of crucial machinery on one of the mid-level floors suggests that the intention was to disable its productive capacity. There appears to be no plausible justification for the extensive damage to the flour mill if the sole objective was to take control of the building. It thus appears that the only purpose was to put an end to the production of flour in the Gaza Strip."
How do you explain the hundreds of testimonies by Israeli soldiers in Breaking the Silence, who attest to war crimes including the indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment inflicted upon the Palestinian people, and the deliberate destruction of Palestinian property?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by viddy9
Hamas were democratically elected in free and fair elections. After an attempted coup supported by the West, they "seized" power. This was after multiple attempts to establish diplomatic relations with both European countries and the United States. These all failed because these countries either didn't reply, or conitnued with their boycott of the Gaza Strip anyway. So to claim that the UK government "didn't care" is fallacious - they cared a great deal about subverting the democratic process.
Also, the reason Palestinians live in fear and ruin is because, as the United Nations and other independent human rights organisations have documented, Israel, in its periodic massacres, deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, thereby making Palestinians dependent on Israel, and keeping them under de facto occupation. This recent war, moreover, was started by Israel. Israel themselves admitted that Hamas had not broken the 2012 ceasefire once. It was actually Israel who have broken the ceasefire multiple times from 2012-2014, culminating in assassinations of Hamas officials in Gaza which started the war, after having presided over the unlawful mass arrest of hundreds of Hamas political officials in the West Bank.
If the fear is due to Hamas, how do you explain, for example, the destruction el-Bader flour mill, which occurred on 9th January 2009, and the mill itself was then occupied until 13th January. It had no combatants within it, and the consequences were severe: the capacity of Gaza to produce milled flour, the most basic staple ingredient of the local diet, has been greatly diminished. The population of Gaza is now largely dependent on the Israeli authorities' granting permission for flour and bread to enter the Gaza Strip. As a UN report concluded: "The nature of the strikes on the mill and in particular the precise targeting of crucial machinery on one of the mid-level floors suggests that the intention was to disable its productive capacity. There appears to be no plausible justification for the extensive damage to the flour mill if the sole objective was to take control of the building. It thus appears that the only purpose was to put an end to the production of flour in the Gaza Strip."
How do you explain the hundreds of testimonies by Israeli soldiers in Breaking the Silence, who attest to war crimes including the indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment inflicted upon the Palestinian people, and the deliberate destruction of Palestinian property?
Also, the reason Palestinians live in fear and ruin is because, as the United Nations and other independent human rights organisations have documented, Israel, in its periodic massacres, deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, thereby making Palestinians dependent on Israel, and keeping them under de facto occupation. This recent war, moreover, was started by Israel. Israel themselves admitted that Hamas had not broken the 2012 ceasefire once. It was actually Israel who have broken the ceasefire multiple times from 2012-2014, culminating in assassinations of Hamas officials in Gaza which started the war, after having presided over the unlawful mass arrest of hundreds of Hamas political officials in the West Bank.
If the fear is due to Hamas, how do you explain, for example, the destruction el-Bader flour mill, which occurred on 9th January 2009, and the mill itself was then occupied until 13th January. It had no combatants within it, and the consequences were severe: the capacity of Gaza to produce milled flour, the most basic staple ingredient of the local diet, has been greatly diminished. The population of Gaza is now largely dependent on the Israeli authorities' granting permission for flour and bread to enter the Gaza Strip. As a UN report concluded: "The nature of the strikes on the mill and in particular the precise targeting of crucial machinery on one of the mid-level floors suggests that the intention was to disable its productive capacity. There appears to be no plausible justification for the extensive damage to the flour mill if the sole objective was to take control of the building. It thus appears that the only purpose was to put an end to the production of flour in the Gaza Strip."
How do you explain the hundreds of testimonies by Israeli soldiers in Breaking the Silence, who attest to war crimes including the indiscriminate bombing and collective punishment inflicted upon the Palestinian people, and the deliberate destruction of Palestinian property?
No, Hamas were elected to rule the Gaza strip forever. They're not democrats. Hence to talk about the 2006 "election" as democratic is totally meaningless. Hamas have not held an election since, and don't plan on doing so. They have no opposition in their "parliament", and execute their political opponents without trial (not that their political opponents - mainly Fatah - have been much (if any) better). They fire missiles into Israel with the intention of killing random Israeli civilians. Their goal is jihad; to create an Islamic state with no free speech, no free elections, no political or civil rights, no gay rights, no anything. They have already imposed a barbaric regime on the Gaza strip and abolished human rights. Anyone who doesn't actively oppose Hamas is at best a useful idiot, at worst the enemy.
Gaza is run by a terrorist regime which wants to exterminate Israel and does not believe Israel has a right to exist. I therefore find it unsurprising that Israel goes to extreme measures to keep the Gaza strip under its control. If the Gaza strip were a liberal democracy which recognised Israel's right to exist, that wouldn't happen.
I don't support everything that Israel does - but I support its side in the war. Throughout its entire history, it has been a lone democracy surrounded by tyranny - moreover, tyranny which wants to exterminate it and has tried to do so on numerous occasions. Perhaps some of what Israel has done could be classified as war crimes. But its enemies conduct war crimes every single day.
Original post by viddy9
Western governments now care about the Kurds in large part because they have control of many strategic resources, including oilfields. In fact, it wasn't until IS were threatening the Kurdish-controlled oilfields that they actually intervened.
Western governments now care about the Kurds in large part because they have control of many strategic resources, including oilfields. In fact, it wasn't until IS were threatening the Kurdish-controlled oilfields that they actually intervened.
The Kurdistan area has got very little oil. If this was over oil the USA et al would have sent many more aircraft on a much more intensive bombing campaign, possibly sending ground troops.
We support the Kurds because they are on our side in the fight against IS, and they are a much more effective ground fighting force than the Iraqi army which often fled without firing a shot even though IS were miles away.
Original post by RFowler
The Kurdistan area has got very little oil. If this was over oil the USA et al would have sent many more aircraft on a much more intensive bombing campaign, possibly sending ground troops.
We support the Kurds because they are on our side in the fight against IS, and they are a much more effective ground fighting force than the Iraqi army which often fled without firing a shot even though IS were miles away.
We support the Kurds because they are on our side in the fight against IS, and they are a much more effective ground fighting force than the Iraqi army which often fled without firing a shot even though IS were miles away.
I disagree. The Kurds have been in control of many oilfields, and have taken control of more in the past few months. See here, for instance.
Original post by Jgco2chem
I wonder why they are against israel/us/eu ?
Because UN(USA/EU) annexed big part of Palestine to create Israel
Think it's pretty obvious.
If Hamas ever wants peace, they can have it. If they lay down their weapons Israel will stop killing them.
If the Kurds want peace, they can't have it. If they lay down their weapons they will be all be killed as ISIS continues their genocide.
Additionally, I think the West might be a bit more annoyed with Israel if Israel started beheading people on camera.
Some people need to realise that not everything is about Palestine.
If Hamas ever wants peace, they can have it. If they lay down their weapons Israel will stop killing them.
If the Kurds want peace, they can't have it. If they lay down their weapons they will be all be killed as ISIS continues their genocide.
Additionally, I think the West might be a bit more annoyed with Israel if Israel started beheading people on camera.
Some people need to realise that not everything is about Palestine.
Original post by paddyman4
Think it's pretty obvious.
If Hamas ever wants peace, they can have it. If they lay down their weapons Israel will stop killing them.
If Hamas ever wants peace, they can have it. If they lay down their weapons Israel will stop killing them.
So if Hamas lay down their weapons, Israel will end the blockade on Gaza, make a full disengagement and withdrawal from the West Bank including East Jerusalem, evacuate all settlements in the OPT, and permit the establishment of a Palestinian state with full sovereignty over territorial, air and maritime space?
Didn't think so.
Also, the PLO laid down their weapons in 1993. They didn't get peace.
Original post by anarchism101
So if Hamas lay down their weapons, Israel will end the blockade on Gaza, make a full disengagement and withdrawal from the West Bank including East Jerusalem, evacuate all settlements in the OPT, and permit the establishment of a Palestinian state with full sovereignty over territorial, air and maritime space?
Didn't think so.
Also, the PLO laid down their weapons in 1993. They didn't get peace.
Didn't think so.
Also, the PLO laid down their weapons in 1993. They didn't get peace.
They'd get peace in Gaza, Fatah have even disowned Hamas there. Or at least they might life the blockade anyway.
Original post by anarchism101
So if Hamas lay down their weapons, Israel will end the blockade on Gaza, make a full disengagement and withdrawal from the West Bank including East Jerusalem, evacuate all settlements in the OPT, and permit the establishment of a Palestinian state with full sovereignty over territorial, air and maritime space?
Didn't think so.
Also, the PLO laid down their weapons in 1993. They didn't get peace.
Didn't think so.
Also, the PLO laid down their weapons in 1993. They didn't get peace.
Well no, I didn't say they would. I said they'd get peace, not their wildest wet dream come true.
Original post by paddyman4
Well no, I didn't say they would. I said they'd get peace, not their wildest wet dream come true.
Apart from minor adjustments, that's what a peace deal would mean. Peace isn't just the absence of immediate fighting.
Original post by Rakas21
They'd get peace in Gaza, Fatah have even disowned Hamas there. Or at least they might life the blockade anyway.
As I said, peace means more than just a break from immediate fighting.
Original post by anarchism101
Apart from minor adjustments, that's what a peace deal would mean. Peace isn't just the absence of immediate fighting.
No, a peace deal would mean any deal that both sides agree to which includes a long-term peace. If both sides agreed to a long-term peace plan which includes an Israeli Jerusalem, that's still a peace deal.
Israel are never, ever going to give Jerusalem up so Hamas are just signing everyone up to another generation of stop-start war and abject poverty because they won't let go of an unattainable demand.
Original post by paddyman4
No, a peace deal would mean any deal that both sides agree to which includes a long-term peace. If both sides agreed to a long-term peace plan which includes an Israeli Jerusalem, that's still a peace deal.
However, several past talks and set parameters have made it clear that the Palestinians would not accept such a deal.
Israel are never, ever going to give Jerusalem
Then it's Israel who are blocking peace.
Also, Ehud Olmert did show a willingness to relinquish the bulk of East Jerusalem to a Palestinian state
Original post by anarchism101
However, several past talks and set parameters have made it clear that the Palestinians would not accept such a deal.
Then it's Israel who are blocking peace.
Also, Ehud Olmert did show a willingness to relinquish the bulk of East Jerusalem to a Palestinian state
Then it's Israel who are blocking peace.
Also, Ehud Olmert did show a willingness to relinquish the bulk of East Jerusalem to a Palestinian state
Israel has a GDP 20-30 times larger with which to fund their military. Its simply not realistic for any Palestinian government to reject a peace deal because there's no way they can ever win.
Whether its right or wrong for Israel to hold out is irrelevant. That's not how the world works.
Original post by Rakas21
Israel has a GDP 20-30 times larger with which to fund their military. Its simply not realistic for any Palestinian government to reject a peace deal because there's no way they can ever win.
Israel could easily defeat Egypt militarily too, but were nevertheless effectively forced to accept a full peace by the US. Same would apply with Palestine if the US had the political will. You could also draw the analogy to Northern Ireland - the IRA would never have militarily defeated the British, but did become enough of a problem to have their grievances recognised and at least partially addressed.
Whether its right or wrong for Israel to hold out is irrelevant. That's not how the world works.
Arguably true, but peace as an aspect of international law remains a normative concept. The fact that Israel, from a purely realist point of view, has no need to seek peace, does not diminish its responsibility for the lack of peace.
The wannabe world police says Palestine is bad.
But with the kurds they can apply the "enemy of my enemy" logic.
But with the kurds they can apply the "enemy of my enemy" logic.
Why help the Palestinians and not the North Koreans?
Original post by Jammy Duel
The wannabe world police says Palestine is bad.
But with the kurds they can apply the "enemy of my enemy" logic.
But with the kurds they can apply the "enemy of my enemy" logic.
Really though the Kurds generally have a lot in common with the West. I don't think it's as sinister as you make it out to be.
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