The Rooney Rule
I tend to side with Trevor Brooking regards the The Rooney Rule. I'm not sure Positive discrimination is the answer.
Football is chaotic per se. There's currently something of a closed shop regards managerial appointments.
Look at Alan Irvine, fails at Preston and Sheff Wed' then gets a Premier job. Ask any Leeds fan what they think of Neil Warnock. He then gets a plum Premier job at Palace.
Round and round they go; the same names. Sacked, sacked, then do ok. That then ensures they're ok for another job. Only thing dented is their pride. Their bank accounts, through compensation, gets ever larger lol
Perhaps it's time the powers that be considers a meritocratic system.
Perhaps based on success at lower levels first of all. Then a kinda of promotional "incremental" elevation. That would then free up space for managers of all ethnicity.
It's a subjective thing regards who appoints who. I think it's quite a dangerous accusation to suggest most of these chairman are racist? I just think they tend to take poor advice and go with what they consider to be tried and trusted appointments. They need to be braver. Kenny Jackett, perhaps deserved a shot at WBA, rather than Irvine? It's just the same guys recycled.
Black managers will eventually increase. It's just a very slow process. As with all matters in football. Change is something resisted rather than embraced.
Football is chaotic per se. There's currently something of a closed shop regards managerial appointments.
Look at Alan Irvine, fails at Preston and Sheff Wed' then gets a Premier job. Ask any Leeds fan what they think of Neil Warnock. He then gets a plum Premier job at Palace.
Round and round they go; the same names. Sacked, sacked, then do ok. That then ensures they're ok for another job. Only thing dented is their pride. Their bank accounts, through compensation, gets ever larger lol
Perhaps it's time the powers that be considers a meritocratic system.
Perhaps based on success at lower levels first of all. Then a kinda of promotional "incremental" elevation. That would then free up space for managers of all ethnicity.
It's a subjective thing regards who appoints who. I think it's quite a dangerous accusation to suggest most of these chairman are racist? I just think they tend to take poor advice and go with what they consider to be tried and trusted appointments. They need to be braver. Kenny Jackett, perhaps deserved a shot at WBA, rather than Irvine? It's just the same guys recycled.
Black managers will eventually increase. It's just a very slow process. As with all matters in football. Change is something resisted rather than embraced.
(edited 9 years ago)
Nice copy + paste bro
It's all a load of nonsense. There is no racism when it comes to employing black managers, there's a lack of decent candidates.
As the fan of a team that has previously employed a black manager (Charlton Athletic), he was not only my favourite Charlton manager of all time, but many others as well, and after about 6 months out of a job has now found another at Huddersfield.
Please do not get distracted by people who just love playing the race card.
Chris Powell himself (former head of the PFA) stated that the issue was not that there was racism, but instead a lack of black former players putting themselves forward for the roles.
There seems to be an awful lot of people shouting racist at things which clearly aren't recently.
As the fan of a team that has previously employed a black manager (Charlton Athletic), he was not only my favourite Charlton manager of all time, but many others as well, and after about 6 months out of a job has now found another at Huddersfield.
Please do not get distracted by people who just love playing the race card.
Chris Powell himself (former head of the PFA) stated that the issue was not that there was racism, but instead a lack of black former players putting themselves forward for the roles.
There seems to be an awful lot of people shouting racist at things which clearly aren't recently.
That's bang on regards candidates.
I'm a friend of a black ex pro. Great guy who has played for Pompey, Coventry City and in the world cup, 98, for Jamaica. He does feel somewhat disenchanted. However, friend he might be, i still think talent will remain the prerequisite. It shouldn't be any other way.
Take Paul Ince, had he been successful, he would be sought after. His managerial record is ordinary to say the least.
There's also a lot of luck and chance with managerial appointments. Look at Brian McDermott. Sacked by two non league clubs in his first managerial appointments. Slough and Woking. He then managed to get a job as scout at Reading. This through a friend (contacts) in the game. Then Reading boss,Brendan Rodgers gets the sack. McDermott, is asked to take over as stop-gap boss. He then gets the job. Gets them promoted. Goes to leeds and fails. In the meantime, Rodgers, is considered the new Mourinho. Now, just months after missing out on the Premier title, Liverpool fans are ringing in to shout SACK THE MANAGER LOL
Just chaos football.. but we'd have it no other way.
None of it makes any sense. But great fun. Provides plenty of material for half-wit pundits like Chavage to debate
I'm a friend of a black ex pro. Great guy who has played for Pompey, Coventry City and in the world cup, 98, for Jamaica. He does feel somewhat disenchanted. However, friend he might be, i still think talent will remain the prerequisite. It shouldn't be any other way.
Take Paul Ince, had he been successful, he would be sought after. His managerial record is ordinary to say the least.
There's also a lot of luck and chance with managerial appointments. Look at Brian McDermott. Sacked by two non league clubs in his first managerial appointments. Slough and Woking. He then managed to get a job as scout at Reading. This through a friend (contacts) in the game. Then Reading boss,Brendan Rodgers gets the sack. McDermott, is asked to take over as stop-gap boss. He then gets the job. Gets them promoted. Goes to leeds and fails. In the meantime, Rodgers, is considered the new Mourinho. Now, just months after missing out on the Premier title, Liverpool fans are ringing in to shout SACK THE MANAGER LOL
Just chaos football.. but we'd have it no other way.
None of it makes any sense. But great fun. Provides plenty of material for half-wit pundits like Chavage to debate
England has a terrible shortage of registered & qualified coaches compared to other European nations, given how black players are in the minority is it any surprise that there aren't many black managers to pick from. It has nothing to do with racism, it's simply down to a lack of candidates.
Manchester United, Chelsea, Tottenham, Everton & Manchester City have all changed their managers in the past year and a bit. If the 'Rooney Rule' was active who the hell would they have interviewed? I can't think of a single person who wouldn't be hopelessly out of their depth, never mind 5.
Manchester United, Chelsea, Tottenham, Everton & Manchester City have all changed their managers in the past year and a bit. If the 'Rooney Rule' was active who the hell would they have interviewed? I can't think of a single person who wouldn't be hopelessly out of their depth, never mind 5.
A thing that seems to get overlooked a lot in this debate is also that a large proportion of managers are ex-high-level-players between the ages of 40-60, so playing between roughly the 1970s and the 1990s. When you consider that (a) only a small number of players actually go on to be successful managers anyway, and (b) there weren't really huge numbers of black players in English football until the 1990s, it's hardly surprising that there aren't many working at English clubs at the moment.
Original post by punditgal999
That's bang on regards candidates.
I'm a friend of a black ex pro. Great guy who has played for Pompey, Coventry City and in the world cup, 98, for Jamaica. He does feel somewhat disenchanted. However, friend he might be, i still think talent will remain the prerequisite. It shouldn't be any other way.
I'm a friend of a black ex pro. Great guy who has played for Pompey, Coventry City and in the world cup, 98, for Jamaica. He does feel somewhat disenchanted. However, friend he might be, i still think talent will remain the prerequisite. It shouldn't be any other way.
Paul Hall?
Original post by Zürich
Off the top of my head, Jean Tiagana, Chris Hughton, Ince, Powell all had managerial positions and none of them were successful. The clubs didnt appoint them, then realise they were racist and sacked them did they?
People should stop looking for hand outs, period.
People should stop looking for hand outs, period.
Chris Powell took us from League one to the Championship with a record points total for League One.
The team that then played in the Championship was WORSE than the team we had in league One due to players leaving and not being replaced.
I think he did very well, its just a new chairman didn't want him, and wanted to install a puppet.
Chris Powell will (in my exceptionally biased opinion) be one of the biggest football managers in the British game in 10 years.
"There's no discrimination, there's a lack of good candidates"
That's not a good enough defence. The logic behind affirmative action is that there are a lack of suitable candidates because of discrimination. For whatever reasons black former players are not putting themselves forward and affirmative action can tackle that.
The Rooney Rule seems flawed to me, but it's in the right ballpark.
That's not a good enough defence. The logic behind affirmative action is that there are a lack of suitable candidates because of discrimination. For whatever reasons black former players are not putting themselves forward and affirmative action can tackle that.
The Rooney Rule seems flawed to me, but it's in the right ballpark.
Don't agree with the Rooney Rule at all. It just sounds like forcing clubs, who have already got their minds on a manager, just wasting a BME candidate's time for an interview that person has no chance of getting. Somebody on Twitter said that person would gain experience and that's true but a football interview experience, I imagine, is different to a job interview for a normal job. I don't feel they'd be missing out big time on experience IMO.
Best way to change things is improve the diverse make up in boardrooms and in the decision making process at the top. Hopefully, that decision helps people change their thinking and give BME candidates a real opportunity and not just tokenism and wasting their time.
On the other hand, black coaches have to put themselves out there. Rio Ferdinand, for example, has said he wants to coach England. Probably won't but brilliant to hear him have that ambition but like alot of retired players, they jump into the media limelight. And then talk about BME candidates not getting a chance when they, themselves, have not even tried.
Best way to change things is improve the diverse make up in boardrooms and in the decision making process at the top. Hopefully, that decision helps people change their thinking and give BME candidates a real opportunity and not just tokenism and wasting their time.
On the other hand, black coaches have to put themselves out there. Rio Ferdinand, for example, has said he wants to coach England. Probably won't but brilliant to hear him have that ambition but like alot of retired players, they jump into the media limelight. And then talk about BME candidates not getting a chance when they, themselves, have not even tried.
Original post by Zürich
Off the top of my head, Jean Tiagana, Chris Hughton, Ince, Powell all had managerial positions and none of them were successful. The clubs didnt appoint them, then realise they were racist and sacked them did they?
People should stop looking for hand outs, period.
People should stop looking for hand outs, period.
To be fair Hughton did all right. I would blame poor ownership for him getting sacked rather than either a poor record or racism.
The Rooney Rule, like all affirmative action, is a complete joke. It's discriminatory to non-blacks, patronising to blacks, and absolutely unnecessary given there is no racism involved.
Original post by tengentoppa
To be fair Hughton did all right. I would blame poor ownership for him getting sacked rather than either a poor record or racism.
The Rooney Rule, like all affirmative action, is a complete joke. It's discriminatory to non-blacks, patronising to blacks, and absolutely unnecessary given there is no racism involved.
The Rooney Rule, like all affirmative action, is a complete joke. It's discriminatory to non-blacks, patronising to blacks, and absolutely unnecessary given there is no racism involved.
What "poor ownership" lead to Norwich getting relegated? This was the ownership that pulled the club from near liquidation and the bottom of league 1 to the Premier League in 2 years, and that managed 2 successive mid table finishes in that league all whilst getting the club debt free. Chris Hughton was given more money to spend than any other Norwich manager in history, money that was spent on a striker that scored twice? His general record was poor, and this wasn't just against top prem teams, but also includes him being the first manager of a Premier League club to be knocked out the FA cup by a none league side (Luton). Oh and this is the same "poor ownership" that now has the team sitting top of the Championship and one of the favourites for promotion.
Chris Hughton was a "nice man" but just wasn't up to the job. Perhaps he was too nice and too respectful of opposition, and not able to stand up to players when they didn't perform. Also, in terms of fan opinion, he was always going to have an uphill battle against prejudiced from the start, that prejudiced being that he wasn't Paul Lambert.
Any attempt to say Chris Hughton was unpopular with Norwich fans because he wasn't white enough (despite the same fans worshipping a number of black players on the team), is like saying David Moyes was unpopular with Man U fans because he was too Scottish.
Original post by fluttershy
What "poor ownership" lead to Norwich getting relegated? This was the ownership that pulled the club from near liquidation and the bottom of league 1 to the Premier League in 2 years, and that managed 2 successive mid table finishes in that league all whilst getting the club debt free. Chris Hughton was given more money to spend than any other Norwich manager in history, money that was spent on a striker that scored twice? His general record was poor, and this wasn't just against top prem teams, but also includes him being the first manager of a Premier League club to be knocked out the FA cup by a none league side (Luton). Oh and this is the same "poor ownership" that now has the team sitting top of the Championship and one of the favourites for promotion.
Chris Hughton was a "nice man" but just wasn't up to the job. Perhaps he was too nice and too respectful of opposition, and not able to stand up to players when they didn't perform. Also, in terms of fan opinion, he was always going to have an uphill battle against prejudiced from the start, that prejudiced being that he wasn't Paul Lambert.
Any attempt to say Chris Hughton was unpopular with Norwich fans because he wasn't white enough (despite the same fans worshipping a number of black players on the team), is like saying David Moyes was unpopular with Man U fans because he was too Scottish.
Chris Hughton was a "nice man" but just wasn't up to the job. Perhaps he was too nice and too respectful of opposition, and not able to stand up to players when they didn't perform. Also, in terms of fan opinion, he was always going to have an uphill battle against prejudiced from the start, that prejudiced being that he wasn't Paul Lambert.
Any attempt to say Chris Hughton was unpopular with Norwich fans because he wasn't white enough (despite the same fans worshipping a number of black players on the team), is like saying David Moyes was unpopular with Man U fans because he was too Scottish.
I don't think anyone is attempting to say that.
Hughton led Norwich to 11th place in 2013 and Norwich were 5 points off the relegation zone with 5 games left to play last year. Sacking him at that critical point was a stupid decision and unsurprisingly Norwich got 1 point from their last 5 games and were relegated. Had they not sacked him, I think Norwich would have stayed up. The timing was poor.
Original post by tengentoppa
I don't think anyone is attempting to say that.
Hughton led Norwich to 11th place in 2013 and Norwich were 5 points off the relegation zone with 5 games left to play last year. Sacking him at that critical point was a stupid decision and unsurprisingly Norwich got 1 point from their last 5 games and were relegated. Had they not sacked him, I think Norwich would have stayed up. The timing was poor.
Hughton led Norwich to 11th place in 2013 and Norwich were 5 points off the relegation zone with 5 games left to play last year. Sacking him at that critical point was a stupid decision and unsurprisingly Norwich got 1 point from their last 5 games and were relegated. Had they not sacked him, I think Norwich would have stayed up. The timing was poor.
I'm a Norwich fan.
Hughton was a terrible manager.
He should have been sacked much earlier.
We were lucky to finish 11th the season before.
Our last 4 games were against Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal I believe. We were relegated already.
Nice bloke. **** manager.
Hughton's hair annoys me. Exactly half of it is black and the other half is grey.
Did anyone hear shouty man Stan Collymore, ranting on FIVE LIVE with Steve Nolan, Saturday evening?
Stan was a top striker. However, he's suffering a serious bout of paranoia. There was no holding the guy shouting at the top of his voice about the discrimination against black coaches.
Sorry, the Rooney Law debate is a Lazy argument. Football can be accused of being many things, Antiquated, archaic but not racist. Have positive discrimination by all means. But for all coaches of every creed & ethnicity.
Football's problem is poor managerial appointment structure. Too many failing managers merely get recycled. It's a closed shop in that respect. Thus it clogs up the system and in doing so restricts opportunity. A more meritocratic system needs to be implemented.
Good friend of mine, Tony Thorpe, record scorer at Luton, has failed to land jobs at non-league level. Been interviewed for jobs at Corby Town, Banbury United but not got the job. What about guys like him with full coaching qualifications. Who is making a case for these guys?
Heather, Rabbatts, FA Director, Brendan Batson, PFA, Keith Curle, Carlisle boss, Chris Powell, Huddersfield boss. I'm not sure these distinguished folk recognise racism in football?
Football is clunky and slow in modernising. However, i don't think in this day an age, there's discrimination against a manager based on the colour of his/her skin. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a guy like Paul Ince succeed. Alas he hasn't. Time will see a more representative playing field in football. It just takes an age. As with so many other relevant societal issues, football is the last sport to adapt.
There's plenty of over-seas managers currently in the modern game.
Stan was a top striker. However, he's suffering a serious bout of paranoia. There was no holding the guy shouting at the top of his voice about the discrimination against black coaches.
Sorry, the Rooney Law debate is a Lazy argument. Football can be accused of being many things, Antiquated, archaic but not racist. Have positive discrimination by all means. But for all coaches of every creed & ethnicity.
Football's problem is poor managerial appointment structure. Too many failing managers merely get recycled. It's a closed shop in that respect. Thus it clogs up the system and in doing so restricts opportunity. A more meritocratic system needs to be implemented.
Good friend of mine, Tony Thorpe, record scorer at Luton, has failed to land jobs at non-league level. Been interviewed for jobs at Corby Town, Banbury United but not got the job. What about guys like him with full coaching qualifications. Who is making a case for these guys?
Heather, Rabbatts, FA Director, Brendan Batson, PFA, Keith Curle, Carlisle boss, Chris Powell, Huddersfield boss. I'm not sure these distinguished folk recognise racism in football?
Football is clunky and slow in modernising. However, i don't think in this day an age, there's discrimination against a manager based on the colour of his/her skin. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a guy like Paul Ince succeed. Alas he hasn't. Time will see a more representative playing field in football. It just takes an age. As with so many other relevant societal issues, football is the last sport to adapt.
There's plenty of over-seas managers currently in the modern game.
Well, I am for it. They only have to interview the candidates, they do not have to hire them. And if they dislike the idea of interviewing more black candidates then they absolutely should also increase the number of white candidates they interview. It is never going to be huge number, so the inconvenience really is minimal.
It may just ensure that the job doesn't automatically go to an "old boy", a friend or to the friend of a friend, which is the biggest problem (except at the top 10 clubs where the job will go to an overseas candidate on merit, anyway - they tend to head-hunt, and English managers suck). That can only be a step in the right direction.
It may just ensure that the job doesn't automatically go to an "old boy", a friend or to the friend of a friend, which is the biggest problem (except at the top 10 clubs where the job will go to an overseas candidate on merit, anyway - they tend to head-hunt, and English managers suck). That can only be a step in the right direction.
(edited 9 years ago)
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