inachigeek21
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#1
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#1
Exists, what is the point of feminism?
I'm sure all human beings are entitled to the same human rights, so eradicate feminism, right?
I understand the matter that minorities of females are treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but shouldn't this require civil conversations not protestations?
I'm curious, and if I have offended anyone on TSR, I apologize.
Feminism is a topic which intrigues me, along with equality.
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KingStannis
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#2
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#2
what an insightful comment. This issue really doesn't get discussed enough.
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RandZul'Zorander
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#3
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#3
(Original post by inachigeek21)
Exists, what is the point of feminism?
I'm sure all human beings are entitled to the same human rights, so eradicate feminism, right?
I understand the matter that minorities of females are treated differently due to their physical characteristics, but shouldn't this require civil conversations not protestations?
I'm curious, and if I have offended anyone on TSR, I apologize.
Feminism is a topic which intrigues me, along with equality.
You acknowledge that equality doesn't exist. Hence feminism.
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Abstraction
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#4
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#4
(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
You acknowledge that equality doesn't exist. Hence feminism.
Feminism is not about equality, and it never has been. It is an ideology of female supremacy. Why don't you call yourself an egalitarian if you want equality?

Also, define 'gender equality', and tell me what it means to have actually attained it. What does a society where the genders are equal look like? Because if you think that until all wolf-whistling stops feminism should keep going, you are asking for state tyranny.

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BitWindy
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#5
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#5
Equality of output doesn't really exist.

I think feminism, at least in some cases, could be about legal equity. Even then, I think we already have that in the UK, perhaps even tipping in favour of women sometimes.

Also, being "entitled to the same human rights" is completely meaningless without enforcement. Simply saying everyone is "entitled" to them achieves nothing; someone living under Sharia law will find no use of your empty claims that they are entitled to "human rights". For this reason, if feminists had the aim of securing equal "rights", there would still be work to be done beyond professing nice blanket statements such as yours.
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RandZul'Zorander
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#6
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#6
(Original post by Abstraction)
Feminism is not about equality, and it never has been. It is an ideology of female supremacy. Why don't you call yourself an egalitarian if you want equality?
Even if you don't think feminism is about equality anymore (which I would say is not true) it is rather ridiculous to claim it has never been about equality.

As to why people don't call themselves egalitarians...you can be both a feminist and an egalitarian. Feminism is essentially a sub-section of egalitarianism, where the focus is on women rather than on the human race as a whole.

Also, define 'gender equality', and tell me what it means to have actually attained it. What does a society where the genders are equal look like? Because if you think that until all wolf-whistling stops feminism should keep going, you are asking for state tyranny.
Its impossible to predict what a completely equal society would look like because its I can't know where society will be. That being said, if vague terms there would be equality of opportunity before the law and also equality of social pressures. Feminism is not just about legal equality but also about about social equality. One would hope that this would lead to equal outcomes but it doesn't need to.
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Abstraction
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#7
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#7
(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
Even if you don't think feminism is about equality anymore (which I would say is not true) it is rather ridiculous to claim it has never been about equality.

As to why people don't call themselves egalitarians...you can be both a feminist and an egalitarian. Feminism is essentially a sub-section of egalitarianism, where the focus is on women rather than on the human race as a whole.



Its impossible to predict what a completely equal society would look like because its I can't know where society will be. That being said, if vague terms there would be equality of opportunity before the law and also equality of social pressures. Feminism is not just about legal equality but also about about social equality. One would hope that this would lead to equal outcomes but it doesn't need to.
Well I would say it's absolutely ridiculous to assert that feminism has ever been about equality. There's a reason why feminism popped up around the age of industrialisation - wealth and output were proliferating, and so women wanted to seize that without needing to be dependent on men any longer and not even working very much for it. Of course we still see this today, to the extent that men have been suffering and continually getting the shorter end of the stick. How has all this been justified? With the myth of millennia-old patriarchal oppression. In fact it's men that, in a way, have been oppressing themselves, since it is they who purposely took on all economic and political responsibility, and sacrificed countless young men in war. But of course, this matters little when women have had to cook in the kitchen and raise children! How horrific!

No you cannot. It's either you want liberty for all, or only for one in particular. Women have human rights, voting privileges, economic opportunity and whatever else - in fact, I would say the scales have been tipped too far in their favour in the West. But even you, supposedly a male, do not care for major issues like male suicide, the use of the State to violently redistribute assets from men to women, deny men access to their own children, and the great inequality in how medical research is distributed. Let's also throw in things like "Yes means Yes" in California, which place a terribly difficult burden of proof on the male to show he's not a rapist. Don't pretend you have ever thought about these issues, you haven't. And that's because your childish, dogmatic and gynocentric sociology studies effectively tell you that men are worth less than women.

You do know that men face a hell of a lot of social pressure too? The entire dating game, which shapes to a large extent how people view themselves, places the duty on the man to be all kinds of things, including a great utility to be used by women. Women are not 'pressured' into looking like anything, they make it their duty to ensnare men with their bodies simply because most of them have little else to offer. Men have always been the builders and creators, women effectively the leeches riding the gravy train. That's not due to patriarchy, that's biology. But I guess that's unfair to women and thus shouldn't be acknowledged.

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RandZul'Zorander
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#8
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#8
(Original post by Abstraction)
Well I would say it's absolutely ridiculous to assert that feminism has ever been about equality. There's a reason why feminism popped up around the age of industrialisation - wealth and output were proliferating, and so women wanted to seize that without needing to be dependent on men any longer and not even working very much for it.
I think you should brush up on your history of feminism and the women's rights movement.

Of course we still see this today, to the extent that men have been suffering and continually getting the shorter end of the stick. How has all this been justified? With the myth of millennia-old patriarchal oppression. In fact it's men that, in a way, have been oppressing themselves, since it is they who purposely took on all economic and political responsibility, and sacrificed countless young men in war. But of course, this matters little when women have had to cook in the kitchen and raise children! How horrific!
You realize you just called patriarchy a myth and then referenced in the the next sentence right? :lol:
You seem to have little familiarity with feminism, as the fact that men have been the sole proprietors of the economic and political well-being of society has not been lost on feminism. Nor has it been lost that men have been the ones to go to war, many forms of feminism recognize and essentially all of them criticize them as wrong.

As for women being forced to stay home, I think you do not understand how horrible that is. To be disallowed from doing anything and having no value unless you can clean and cook, and make babies is terrible.

No you cannot. It's either you want liberty for all, or only for one in particular. Women have human rights, voting privileges, economic opportunity and whatever else - in fact, I would say the scales have been tipped too far in their favour in the West. But even you, supposedly a male, do not care for major issues like male suicide, the use of the State to violently redistribute assets from men to women, deny men access to their own children, and the great inequality in how medical research is distributed. Let's also throw in things like "Yes means Yes" in California, which place a terribly difficult burden of proof on the male to show he's not a rapist. Don't pretend you have ever thought about these issues, you haven't. And that's because your childish, dogmatic and gynocentric sociology studies effectively tell you that men are worth less than women.
Re the bold: What a ridiculous statement! So if I am focussing on one type of privilege I cannot be also for other causes? :rofl: What nonsense.

As for the rest of the paragraph, I like you apparently know about my life and what issues are important to me and which are not. I especially like how you question my being male, why? Because I have the audacity to support women? :rolleyes: You do not know feminism as well as you think. I will say what I have said to many on these forums, feminism is not only one thing. Modern feminism is defined by its many differing approaches and its many lenses. The one's who are portrayed by the media are those who yell the loudest, as is generally the case with any ideology. There are many feminists who do fight for issues like male suicide rates, and family law, and medical research. You saying otherwise only demonstrates your own ignorance of what you are talking about.

You do know that men face a hell of a lot of social pressure too? The entire dating game, which shapes to a large extent how people view themselves, places the duty on the man to be all kinds of things, including a great utility to be used by women. Women are not 'pressured' into looking like anything, they make it their duty to ensnare men with their bodies simply because most of them have little else to offer. Men have always been the builders and creators, women effectively the leeches riding the gravy train. That's not due to patriarchy, that's biology. But I guess that's unfair to women and thus shouldn't be acknowledged.
No way! Men face social pressures as well? :rolleyes:

You are correct that the dating game has a strong influence on people. The questions though are why, what are the messages, and where do they come from? You are right to say that there is a lot of pressure on men to be a lot of things but think about where this pressure comes from. Most of the pressure seems to come from other men who will question each others' manliness if people don't live up to the expected standard.

And you think women are 'pressured' into looking like anything? Once again you contradict yourself later in the paragraph. They must be pressured somehow seeing as you think a woman can only offer her body to men. Apparently thats all they are good for. Nope, no pressure then on women to have a certain look if they want to have a man. :rolleyes:
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