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    (Original post by Howard)
    Interesting. Would you say that only native Americans are "real Americans"
    Nah it's just a thing with me. I have an American friend who is 7% native or something and I just have a thing for them, bit like some people I know who like oriental gals etc I have to be different and like native Americans, that's all. Strange I know. No harm was intended.

    (Original post by vienna95)
    are you american? are you christian?
    Well I've never known someone use it so often. Perhaps I'll understand it when he follows by the whole book of the Bible, and not just bits that suit him. I have no time for people who use religious material to justify their own prejudices. This does not help with race relations and misunderstandings can happen. I've not seen another big politician who's a Christian that appears on TV quite often and say it so much, butt if there has been let me know. I've not been involved for politics until recently so that might explain a lot of it.

    May I ask, why do a lot of threads turn rather 'flamey'? I've only joined less than a week and there seems to be a lot of conentious feelings between users. I guess it's the nature of the topic we're talking about.........
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    well obviously i cant disupte that. But I do know that you attitude towards "affirmative action" is *************************** ( i made that up but its most probaly in those words). So you are effectivly against putting right the horrible racism in society. You clearly come from an affluemnt b/g

    You must therefore not know how it is like to be black and "in the slums". I suggest you go there and ask them.
    I've forgotten more about poverty than you'll ever know Mariam. Joker. "You're clearly this, you're clearly that........blah blah blah" Who the hell are you to make assumptions?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I've forgotten more about poverty than you'll ever know Mariam. Joker. "You're clearly this, you're clearly that........blah blah blah" Who the hell are you to make assumptions?
    I ask you again, do you live in a slum? Do you live amongst those who are socio-ecomically deprived?

    If you do then I cant understand your hypocracy.
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    Its weird how numerous members of the British public appear to be desenting members of the CIA and BRitish Intelligence, being as they know way more intelligence than anyone else, or maybe they gleamed their intell from some piece of garbage known as the Sun or the National Inquirer or Aliens Among Us, afterall they do know every thing. Or maybe it was David Ike and his Babyloinian Reptilian Brotherhood (they know all, see all and control all) or as we say in the States alledgedly!!!
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    I ask you again, do you live in a slum? Do you live amongst those who are socio-ecomically deprived?

    If you do then I cant understand your hypocracy.

    Quite simply put: your a moron

    Affirmative action is racism in any way shape or form - You don't better the worse off by lowering standards. Indeed you dont benefit society...

    If I have a fire at home - I want the BEST fireman comming to my house...

    If I go to the Hospital I want the BEST surgeon I can get - If I get someone who doesnt know their ass from their elbow, but got the job because of the colour of their skin ...
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Affirmative action is racism in any way shape or form - You don't better the worse off by lowering standards. Indeed you dont benefit society
    AA is NOT about discrimating based on ones skin colour. It is about giving a the same opportunity to those who are socially, economically and even politically(!) underprivileged. These people have faced injustices by society in the past and they still do now by people who actively discriminate on the coulour on ones skin, and this has major implications for these minorities- it lowers their social standing and creates almost a caste system where there is division simply based on ethnicity. This links to your second point. A caste system is a waste of human potential because it stops a subsection of society from achieving the most it can.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    If I have a fire at home - I want the BEST fireman comming to my house...

    If I go to the Hospital I want the BEST surgeon I can get - If I get someone who doesnt know their ass from their elbow, but got the job because of the colour of their skin ...
    Another mistaken belief. It is not true that with AA, stanadrads are lowered. Just think about each of the 2 points per se:

    1)Fact: Ethnic minorities face discrimination.
    2)Fact: What happens with AA is that out of two EQUALLY QUALIFIED individuals, the ethnic minority gets an opportunity.

    Firstly, there aren't usually many qualified minoties, and secondly the white person has a far greater being successful elsewhere.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    AA is NOT about discrimating based on ones skin colour. It is about giving a the same opportunity to those who are socially, economically and even politically(!) underprivileged. These people have faced injustices by society in the past and they still do now by people who actively discriminate on the coulour on ones skin, and this has major implications for these minorities- it lowers their social standing and creates almost a caste system where there is division simply based on ethnicity. This links to your second point. A caste system is a waste of human potential because it stops a subsection of society from achieving the most it can.
    1. It is discrimination on skin colour - if you give a job to someone BECAUSE he is black and refuse another BECAUSE he is white - then it is...

    2. I have never discriminated against anyone - why should I suffer for what others have done in the past?

    3. Economically underprivileged is NOT a race issue - should you then have affirmatie action for poor white people? They are discriminated agianst often - Id rather be a middle class black man than a trailer park redneck

    4. The answer to a caste system is to end the caste - not to maintain it and indirectly pay them off.

    5. Human potential is NOT what AA is about - if it was about human potential id say fine - great - What it is about as you make clear, is compensating those who have been disadvantaged in the past



    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    Another mistaken belief. It is not true that with AA, stanadrads are lowered. Just think about each of the 2 points per se:

    1)Fact: Ethnic minorities face discrimination.
    2)Fact: What happens with AA is that out of two EQUALLY QUALIFIED individuals, the ethnic minority gets an opportunity.

    Firstly, there aren't usually many qualified minoties, and secondly the white person has a far greater being successful elsewhere.
    It is simply not the case that they have to be equally qualified. I have seen many stories (Especially with US universities) where people with BETTER qualifications are rejected in favour of ethnic minorities.
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    I know that some of you do not know that some of us are Americans I guess your ignorance can be forgiven. For the rest of you, those who post to make us mad, please be so kind as to can it.
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    (Original post by moncal)
    I know that some of you do not know that some of us are Americans I guess your ignorance can be forgiven. For the rest of you, those who post to make us mad, please be so kind as to can it.
    What are you refering to?
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    What are you refering to?

    Us americans are sick of the american bashing.
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    (Original post by moncal)
    Us americans are sick of the american bashing.
    I mean what america bashing were you referring to?
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    I mean what america bashing were you referring to?

    It's the longest running joke on this forum. What is the thread called?
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    1. It is discrimination on skin colour - if you give a job to someone BECAUSE he is black and refuse another BECAUSE he is white - then it is....
    You are missing the point, true there is discrimination both ways, but the white to black is far more serious than the other way round as I have explained. We have to do what is best for society.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    2. I have never discriminated against anyone - why should I suffer for what others have done in the past?.
    Yes, why? Why should the poor black kid have to suffer, just because he is black? His parents are are liekly to uneducated, he will be too, the future sure looks bleak for him. He himeself has no motivation to better himself. He will have children and the same will be tru for his children. It is not his fault that society still discriminates him because of his skin colour.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    3. Economically underprivileged is NOT a race issue - should you then have affirmatie action for poor white people? They are discriminated agianst often - Id rather be a middle class black man than a trailer park redneck.
    You haven't been listening to what I am saying: discrimaintion is prevalent in this day and age. It creates a sub class of humans divided by which race group they belong to. Fact: A poor white kid has a better chance than a poor black kid.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    4. The answer to a caste system is to end the caste - not to maintain it and indirectly pay them off..
    explain...

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    5. Human potential is NOT what AA is about - if it was about human potential id say fine - great - What it is about as you make clear, is compensating those who have been disadvantaged in the past.
    You've misinterpreted what I've said.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    It is simply not the case that they have to be equally qualified. I have seen many stories (Especially with US universities) where people with BETTER qualifications are rejected in favour of ethnic minorities.
    OK. But as I said we have to willing to make such sacrifices not only to create a FAIR society but a more successful one.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    You are missing the point, true there is discrimination both ways, but the white to black is far more serious than the other way round as I have explained. We have to do what is best for society.

    Yes, why? Why should the poor black kid have to suffer, just because he is black? His parents are are liekly to uneducated, he will be too, the future sure looks bleak for him. He himeself has no motivation to better himself. He will have children and the same will be tru for his children. It is not his fault that society still discriminates him because of his skin colour.

    OK. But as I said we have to willing to make such sacrifices not only to create a FAIR society but a more successful one.
    Yes discrimination may work both ways - but White to black is NOT state sanctioned - to approave affirmative action laws is to APPROVE RACISM to whites.

    Also I am not saying that the black kid should suffer - what I am saying is that AA punishes white people who have DONE NOTHING to deserve it.

    Also you assume that AA makes a more successfull society - taking people who have say lower grades is NOT conducive to that end. Also it is NOT fairer - thats my point - it discriminates on the basis of race.

    The way to end black supression is NOT through AA, but through anti discrimination laws and better funded education - the point is to help people reach their full potential - not to GUESS what it is and to reward them on it.
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Yes discrimination may work both ways - but White to black is NOT state sanctioned - to approave affirmative action laws is to APPROVE RACISM to whites..
    I think you are denying that minorties face discrimination. Please clarify you position. The job of the state is to be responsible and recognise serious problems within socitey. It is the state's job to ensure fairness for all, and to prevent racism in the white to black direction. Choosing a black over a white is only taking away one "opportunity", not "equal opportunity". The white to black discrimination on the other hand undermines the whole idea of "equal opportunity" and as I said minorities do not have an opporunity which is equal.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Also I am not saying that the black kid should suffer - what I am saying is that AA punishes white people who have DONE NOTHING to deserve it..
    Again, you have to look at the broader pricture. Consider AA to be a temporary way of "fixing" the ill socitey. Ideally it should seek to make black and whites have the same social standing. Once this happens, there will be no need for AA. As I said, we need to get rid of the ethnic minority sub class.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Also you assume that AA makes a more successfull society - taking people who have say lower grades is NOT conducive to that end. Also it is NOT fairer - thats my point - it discriminates on the basis of race..
    Again, a minority is generally underprivelaged by there is a culture of illiteracy and lack of education... his is unlikely to know a single relative who goes to uni. Once we get rid of this culture, we pave the way for a more successful society.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    The way to end black supression is NOT through AA, but through anti discrimination laws and better funded education - the point is to help people reach their full potential - not to GUESS what it is and to reward them on it.
    YES, on full agreement here. But as I said, society is racist, like it or not... and racism can only do damage. We need to "fix" this illness even if it means employing such measures.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    I think you are denying that minorties face discrimination. Please clarify you position. The job of the state is to be responsible and recognise serious problems within socitey. It is the state's job to ensure fairness for all, and to prevent racism in the white to black direction. Choosing a black over a white is only taking away one "opportunity", not "equal opportunity". The white to black discrimination on the other hand undermines the whole idea of "equal opportunity" and as I said minorities do not have an opporunity which is equal.
    Everyone faces discrimination - I come fromt he West Indies - I am white - Discrimination there invovles getting shot for being white...

    To ensure fairness for all is NOT to take away the opportunities of those with the qualifications and giving it to others.

    Choosing black over white IS taking away equal opportunity

    My question is - if you want equal opportunity why do you limit it to colour - shouldnt we do it for EVERYONE at a disadvantage? Cause they are poor, they have bad parents, they live next to noisy neighbours, they had a brother who bullied them, they have low self esteem because they were picked on?

    AA IS NOT EQUAL Opportunity - equal opportunity is giving people the ability to reach their potential - AA is giving people things even though they fail to reach it
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    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Everyone faces discrimination - I come fromt he West Indies - I am white - Discrimination there invovles getting shot for being white...

    To ensure fairness for all is NOT to take away the opportunities of those with the qualifications and giving it to others.

    Choosing black over white IS taking away equal opportunity

    My question is - if you want equal opportunity why do you limit it to colour - shouldnt we do it for EVERYONE at a disadvantage? Cause they are poor, they have bad parents, they live next to noisy neighbours, they had a brother who bullied them, they have low self esteem because they were picked on?

    AA IS NOT EQUAL Opportunity - equal opportunity is giving people the ability to reach their potential - AA is giving people things even though they fail to reach it

    I dont dount this that everyone faces discrimination. Each country, each society has to ask itself, "what can we do to make ourselves better". Easy: To eradicate poverty, to improve education, to be wealthier. Why? This will make us happier people. Would you concede to that? We need to what is best not for one person but for the whole of society. Would you agree? Society's poor health can be blamed on the existence of a lower caste, an entire ongoing generation of people, who are destined to be non acheivers. I sympathise for all those who are disadvantaged but most of these people do not experience institutional bias. Interestingly, those on AA schemes go on to prove themselves, they infact do better simply because they appreciate the opportunity given to them.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    I dont dount this that everyone faces discrimination. Each country, each society has to ask itself, "what can we do to make ourselves better". Easy: To eradicate poverty, to improve education, to be wealthier. Why? This will make us happier people. Would you concede to that? We need to what is best not for one person but for the whole of society. Would you agree? Society's poor health can be blamed on the existence of a lower caste, an entire ongoing generation of people, who are destined to be non acheivers. I sympathise for all those who are disadvantaged but most of these people do not experience institutional bias. Interestingly, those on AA schemes go on to prove themselves, they infact do better simply because they appreciate the opportunity given to them.
    To eradicate poverty etc is a noble aim - but thats not to say that it shoudl be pursued at any means - Do you condone taking all the possessions of the rich by force and then giving it to those less fortunate so as to create "equality"?

    Also I do not concede that an equal people is a happy people.

    People do suffer disadvantage - who cares what form it takes - you are saying that we should help those who are at a loss compared to others - why does the fact that that loss is from discrimination make the cause any more worthy?

    Also the fact is that society does NOT have the right to do WHATEVER to achieve the highest level of common good - if you are a pure utilitarian then you would be a rare breed. - We believe in personal integrity - to punish those who have done nothing wrong simply to benefit those who are more disadvantaged is "killing a general to encourage the others".
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    Its quite late and I've got to go to bed, but very briefly,

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    To eradicate poverty etc is a noble aim - but thats not to say that it shoudl be pursued at any means - Do you condone taking all the possessions of the rich by force and then giving it to those less fortunate so as to create "equality".
    No thats collectivism. I do not support that.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    People do suffer disadvantage - who cares what form it takes - you are saying that we should help those who are at a loss compared to others - why does the fact that that loss is from discrimination make the cause any more worthy?.
    I feel as though I've explained that one as fully as I can.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    We believe in personal integrity - to punish those who have done nothing wrong simply to benefit those who are more disadvantaged is "killing a general to encourage the others".
    You also believe in the "voice of the majority", do you not? Even from a utilitarianist's point of view, i believe, the goal of removing our self made caste system, would be desirable.

    (Original post by Lawzzzzzz)
    Also I do not concede that an equal people is a happy people.
    This is it. This is what it all boils down to. I cant change your mind, neither can you mine.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    You also believe in the "voice of the majority", do you not? Even from a utilitarianist's point of view, i believe, the goal of removing our self made caste system, would be desirable.
    To an extent - but then marority rule is not what we want. indeed if it was the voice of the majority then people could perpetuate say slavery because it benefits the majority.

    I object to fighting racism with racism - you cant... simple CANT get away from the fact that AA is racism... try as you might
 
 
 
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