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A bit of college help please! MAGDALEN or TRINITY?!

Hi everyone thanks for reading

i love oxford and have been to have a look around all of the collages down there (took a fair bit of time!)

but in the end two of them stood out- Trinity and Magdalen

any extra information that would help me choose either one of them will be very much appreciated, either by use of this thread or just straight to my email.

Thanks very much

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Reply 1

Yttrium

Shadey

Hmm. Well, they're both well-known colleges - I know considerably more about Magdalen than Trinity but here goes with some stuff:

Trinity
- v. conservative reputation (traditionally right-wing, lots of old-style Oxford stuff by all accounts)
- very pretty grounds
- not very academic (slight reputatoin for posh-but-dim types)

Magdalen
- still reasonably conservative politically but not as overtly so as Trinity
- even prettier grounds than Trinity (IMHO)
- much better academic reputation (usually comes in top 3 or top 5 of % Firsts table)

Magdalen offers accom. for all years of your course and some of the rooms are wonderful. I don't know what the situation is at Trinity. Magdalen tends to get a lot more applicants per place than Trinity but it is good at farming applicants for which it doesn't have enough place out to other colleges. Trinity, I'm sure, does this too, but Magdalen has a particular reputation for it. Trinity does have a more in-town location, but it's only 5-10 minutes walk away from Magdalen, which shows you how this doesn't really matter a great deal.

Someone else will likely come and defend Trinity but I'd say that if you lean towards the more academic side and come from a not-very-posh background, then pick Magdalen. If the idea of a college filled with conservative posh people (this is the stereotype, I don't know how true it is in reality), then go for Trinity.

Hope some of this helps - if you have specific questions about Magdalen then feel free to ask. It would be good to know which subject you're considering applying for.

Reply 2

pbdj

Trinity is very much a smaller college in terms of student numbers and land owned (making it more "quaint"), but undergraduate accomodation is much nicer, as Magdalen send freshers across the river to this monstrosity:
http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/looking_around/waynflete.shtml
whereas Trinity put the first 2 years within the college grounds themselves on Broad Street.

You are allowed on the grass on the lawns at Trinity, whilst I believe such frivolity is not allowed at Magdalen. Trinity is of course more central too, and closer to the science park if you are that way inclined.

(btw I'm incredibly biased as I'm going to Trinity in less than 2 weeks)

Edit: and in contrast to the reptuation Yttrium describes above, Trinity seems to have a strong connection with the North of England (I'm from Manchester). Trinity too offers accommodation for all years. And remember - although the Magdalen grounds may be prettier to some (I disagree), it is very much a case of "look, but don't touch", unlike Trinity

Reply 3

Yttrium

Students are allowed on the lawns for the Summer term but not in the Winter or Spring terms (but who wants to sit on a damp patch of mud anyway?)

The 1st year building (Wayneflete) for Magdalen isn't that great, but I reckon it looks a helluva lot better than the 60s equivalents at places like ChCh and St. John's, and the best 3rd year rooms are amongst the best in the Uni. Does Trinity make you live out in your 2nd or 3rd year? Magdalen don't.

Reply 4

fengo

There are still room ballots in Trinity as well for 3rd years aren't there? And I think people get to come back to live in college for the 4th if they want...

Yttrium - just slightly biased there aren't you? :P Admittedly, I might be too seeing as I'm off to Trinity in a fortnight, like pbdj, but I think a lot of what you said is based around assumptions which may or may not be true. I certainly didn't think Trinity was posh. Indeed, I've been told that Magdalen are just filled with public school type people - more so than any other college. And you say it's not posh? It has a deer park! What sort of college parades the fact that it has one of those?!

For academia - that's just a load of rubbish. I despise the Norrington Table. It does not show at all the quality of teaching in my opinion - lectures are done by the university remember, not by college. Only tutorials are conducted by college. The number of firsts/2:1s that a college will get depends on the student population that graduates that year - you're always going to have those years when the intake inclues a couple of more people who laze around and end up doing no work, and obviously those thirds or passes will decrease the Norrington score of that college. Whether you want to study or not comes from yourself, not from the college.

I don't understand why this "conservative" attitude should come into play either. I'm not conservative, yet I'm in Trinity. How does that work? You apply to a college or university for a place to study, not because of its apparently "inherent" political views.

Make a choice on where *you* think you would like to be. Don't spend too much time on it either. Even an impulsive decision will be okay. Remember that there are more similarities between colleges than differences. If you get too attached to a college now, you might be disappointed if you get pooled, which may even happen before your interview. Good luck with everything.

Reply 5

Yttrium

fengo

There are still room ballots in Trinity as well for 3rd years aren't there? And I think people get to come back to live in college for the 4th if they want...

Well, almost all colleges require their undergraduates to live out for one or more of their years. Looking at this website, http://www.trinity.ox.ac.uk/admissions/prospectus/#accommodation, Trinity shoves its 3rd years 1.5 miles out of town, admittedly in college accomodation, but not within college walls. Magdalen's 1st year accomodation is, yes, all outside of walls, but only about 3 minutes away from college. Being half-way up the Woodstock road is another thing.

fengo

Yttrium - just slightly biased there aren't you? :P Admittedly, I might be too seeing as I'm off to Trinity in a fortnight, like pbdj, but I think a lot of what you said is based around assumptions which may or may not be true. I certainly didn't think Trinity was posh. Indeed, I've been told that Magdalen are just filled with public school type people - more so than any other college. And you say it's not posh? It has a deer park! What sort of college parades the fact that it has one of those?!

Yup, I am biased, but at least I feel I'm reasonably well-informed, having actually spent a year in the place. As a prospective Trinitarian, you know some stuff about the college, sure, but you haven't quite seen everything for yourself yet. Magdalen isn't 'filled with public school people' - here's the document that shows the percentages of state/public school people at each college (last page): http://www.admissions.ox.ac.uk/adstats.pdf#search=%22adstats%20oxford%22. Trinity is 48.4% state school, whereas Magdalen is 50.7%. Now, I'm not arguing this is a massive difference, but Magdalen doesn't have that many public school people in, especially compared to places like Teddy Hall and Worcester (43.1% state), the latter of which has more public school people than any other college, not Magdalen.

fengo

For academia - that's just a load of rubbish. I despise the Norrington Table. It does not show at all the quality of teaching in my opinion - lectures are done by the university remember, not by college. Only tutorials are conducted by college. The number of firsts/2:1s that a college will get depends on the student population that graduates that year - you're always going to have those years when the intake inclues a couple of more people who laze around and end up doing no work, and obviously those thirds or passes will decrease the Norrington score of that college. Whether you want to study or not comes from yourself, not from the college.

Yes, I do realise that lectures are given by the university, rather than the college. I've *even* attended a few myself. The Norrington table is not infallible, as you say, but it does show trends quite well. Merton consistently comes out as number 1 (or occasionally 2). Magdalen almost always comes in the top 5. Trinity's position in the years 2000 to 2006 has ranged from 9th to 23rd, but it tends to occupy a position at around 13 or 14th in the table. Respectable, but not as academic as Magdalen (although why this is is entirely up in the air - one reasonable suggestion would be that Magdalen's tutors are better, or, perhaps, just pushier)...

fengo

I don't understand why this "conservative" attitude should come into play either. I'm not conservative, yet I'm in Trinity. How does that work? You apply to a college or university for a place to study, not because of its apparently "inherent" political views.

Sure, you can go to Trinity if you're not a conservative. But that doesn't mean that the college doesn't have some kind of atmosphere around it. I would suggest that different colleges do have their own individual character - something it's a little hard for you to comment on as you haven't got to Oxford yet. Trinity is famous for its rivalry with Balliol (a famously liberal/left-wing college), which is a largely political one.

fengo

Make a choice on where *you* think you would like to be. Don't spend too much time on it either. Even an impulsive decision will be okay. Remember that there are more similarities between colleges than differences. If you get too attached to a college now, you might be disappointed if you get pooled, which may even happen before your interview. Good luck with everything.

This is true. But there's no problem with analysing things in detail too - you might want to know about current rent prices and more concrete pieces of information like that. Do both colleges, for example, have good catering facilities? However, fengo is right in that he says that college choice is not the be-all-and-end-all of your time at Oxford, although it naturally does dictate who you spend most of your time with, and is, I would argue, quite an important decision.

But since you seem to like both Magdalen and Trinity, I'd go with a gut feeling. I had a gut feeling about Magdalen, then spent quite a while agonizing over different things such as tutors, rent prices, accomodation issues, applicants per place but opted for Magdalen anyway. You'll be happy wherever you apply - just focus on getting in!

Reply 6

fengo

Prospective? You may want to choose a different word.

Haha, you're now pelting me with statistics? Okay, two can play at that game. From admission statistics, 62.6% of people who applied to Magdalen was from the maintained sector, but only 51.3% who got in was from the maintained sector. Even on a three year average, 60.2% of people who applied to Magdalen was from the maintained sector, but only 50.7% got in. That's a consistent 10% difference in favour to the pupils from the independent sector, which is not seen from other college, such as Trinity: 56.2% who applied to Trinity was from maintained schools, 49.4% who got offers was from maintained schools, in 2005. On average, it is also more consistent than Magdalen - even more so! Over last three years, 52.6% applied to Trinity from maintained educational backgrounds, 48.4% of those who got offers came from maintained schools. Yes, Trinity does appear to attract, on proportion, more of those from the independent sector than Magdalen - but this can be from either more people from independent schools applying, as you are suggesting, or clearly, it can also be from people from maintained schools not applying. But from these statistics, clearly it is Magdalen who is biased towards accepting independently educated pupils more. If you're going by statistics that is.

I still don't see why you start rating "colleges" as academic - it's the people who get the results, not the college themselves. What if some prat ends up in Magdalen, and flunks completely? Boy won't that lower the Norrington Scores. And if you really want to look at Norrington Scores, look at how pointless they are. Magdalen came 3rd equal this year, with around 74, with 1 2:2 and no thirds. Trinity came 9th, with about 70, but with 9 2:2s and a third. Do you think that small proportion of people accurately reflect the academic life of the college as a whole? I don't think so.

Yes, Trinity is famous for its rivalry, and yes, our JCR handbook does comment on the lefty views of Balliol. However, doesn't it occur to you that perhaps a lot of it has to do with the fact that the two colleges are...next to each other?

And yes, choosing a college is an important decision. I'm just saying that since things are certainly not set in stone, it is important not to get *too* attached to the idea so soon.

Reply 7

Yttrium

fengo

Prospective? You may want to choose a different word.

Oh, I thought you weren't at Trinity yet. Doesn't that make you a prospective Trinitarian?

fengo

Haha, you're now pelting me with statistics? Okay, two can play at that game. From admission statistics, 62.6% of people who applied to Magdalen was from the maintained sector, but only 51.3% who got in was from the maintained sector. Even on a three year average, 60.2% of people who applied to Magdalen was from the maintained sector, but only 50.7% got in. That's a consistent 10% difference in favour to the pupils from the independent sector, which is not seen from other college, such as Trinity: 56.2% who applied to Trinity was from maintained schools, 49.4% who got offers was from maintained schools, in 2005. On average, it is also more consistent than Magdalen - even more so! Over last three years, 52.6% applied to Trinity from maintained educational backgrounds, 48.4% of those who got offers came from maintained schools. Yes, Trinity does appear to attract, on proportion, more of those from the independent sector than Magdalen - but this can be from either more people from independent schools applying, as you are suggesting, or clearly, it can also be from people from maintained schools not applying. But from these statistics, clearly it is Magdalen who is biased towards accepting independently educated pupils more. If you're going by statistics that is.

Quoting the statistics I provided you with back to me isn't going to tell me anything new. I would simply suggest that it's the people who get in who define a college's atmosphere, not the people who apply.

fengo

I still don't see why you start rating "colleges" as academic - it's the people who get the results, not the college themselves. What if some prat ends up in Magdalen, and flunks completely? Boy won't that lower the Norrington Scores. And if you really want to look at Norrington Scores, look at how pointless they are. Magdalen came 3rd equal this year, with around 74, with 1 2:2 and no thirds. Trinity came 9th, with about 70, but with 9 2:2s and a third. Do you think that small proportion of people accurately reflect the academic life of the college as a whole? I don't think so.

I was using 'college' as a metonym for 'students that make up a college'. Sorry for the confusion. I stand by my previous statements about the Norrington table - it is useful in showing trends. If it's all pot luck and varies from year to year, then how come Harris Manchester almost always languishes right at the very bottom of the table, and Merton is almost always right at the top? Surely it *does* show something about the academic nature of a college?

fengo

Yes, Trinity is famous for its rivalry, and yes, our JCR handbook does comment on the lefty views of Balliol. However, doesn't it occur to you that perhaps a lot of it has to do with the fact that the two colleges are...next to each other?

Yup, that's right. But there is also a traditional political divide. If the colleges were next to each-other and both espoused liberal and left-wing views, I'd suggest the divide would be less. It's a traditional, stereotypical view that might not be as relevant now as it was in the past, but I would argue it likely still does have some resonance, mentioned as it is in your JCR handbook.

fengo

And yes, choosing a college is an important decision. I'm just saying that since things are certainly not set in stone, it is important not to get *too* attached to the idea so soon.

Amen to that.

I'm not saying that Magdalen is somehow objectively *better* than Trinity, just different. I find college rivalry quite unnecessary, to be honest, but all colleges are different in certain ways, and knowing these differences allows you to pick the place that would be best for you. I don't know which would be best for the OP - I'm just trying to give him some information as to let him decide and this kind of slanging match isn't, I'd suggest, particularly helpful.

Reply 8

cool nerd

hi, out of interest, what comments did ur JCR make about balliol?

Reply 9

pbdj

cool nerd

hi, out of interest, what comments did ur JCR make about balliol?

now that would be opening a can of worms...

Reply 10

fengo

"Surely it *does* show something about the academic nature of a college?"

My point is that those people could easily have gone into other colleges such as Magdalen. So how is it the college's fault that they decided to do no work?

"I'm just trying to give him some information as to let him decide and this kind of slanging match isn't, I'd suggest, particularly helpful."

But an unbalanced viewpoint is not helpful either.

Reply 11

kizer

Yttrium

The 1st year building (Wayneflete) for Magdalen isn't that great, but I reckon it looks a helluva lot better than the 60s equivalents at places like ChCh and St. John's, and the best 3rd year rooms are amongst the best in the Uni. Does Trinity make you live out in your 2nd or 3rd year? Magdalen don't.

I disagree... Wayneflete is clearly uglier than the Beehive and Tommy White at St John's.

The Beehive even won an award for best concrete building in the 60s! :p:

Reply 12

deen

I'm a current Trinity student who's been here for two years so far and thought I'd add something to this post:

- Trinity does indeed have an outdated stereotype as being a posh, not so academic, politically conservative, sporty-ish college. However, this is emphatically NOT the case nowadays and your college choice shouldn't be directed by this (or any other college's) outdated stereotype.

- Academics: Trinity is almost always in the top third of the Norrington Table (and in recent years has been creeping higher up the table) so it is consistently more academic than two-thirds of Oxford colleges.

- Poshness: Trinity is roughly 50% state, 50% private and is certainly no more posh than Magdalen. The JCR (and MCR) are extremely welcoming and no-one cares what school what you went to. Like all Oxford colleges it has a real mix of people and it does have a good link with many Northern schools. None of the Oxford colleges in my experience are dominated by posh types. The self-consciously posh types in each college tend to hang around with each other and let the rest of us get on with it.

- Politically conservative: like all Oxford colleges the majority of Trinity students are pretty apathetic and don't really identify with the political parties. The JCR (and MCR) committee is very non-politically active and this reflects the college as a whole. To be fair, out of the minority who are politically active, the Tory party probably has the most members but many of them are allied to the more left-leaning Tory Reform Group than OUCA. There are also quite a number of Lib Dems too.
Last year we had an Oxford Union Treasurer but we also had an OUSU welfare sabbatical officer!

- Hope this has helped a little!

Reply 13

Elles

You visited them both & there wasn't just one that stood out? damn, that's the easier way!

Anyhow, i'd ignore all the "atmosphere" & backgrounds of students blah blah blah - because most people have nothing else to compare their college experiences/perceptions too so it's just stereotypes galore & the latter doesn't really matter, you can make friends wherever you are.

So my shortlist focussed on objective things that mattered to me:

Elles' Things-That-Matter-in-College-Choice Thought Process

-Location relevant to department & centre of town
- Size - both geographical & student numbers
- Accomodation provision - as in how many years, how expensive, where is it - not so shallow as to be massively deterred by the outside of a single building off of the main site... :rolleyes:

- which incidentally has really decent sized rooms, good communal facilities, is above an off license, next to the river so you can punt & BBQ, oh & about 3 minutes from college shared with the majority of your first year on sociable long corridors = twas brilliant!
- Subject teaching provision/history - academics might be slightly relevant here, number of tutors etc.
- Self catering facilities - can be a big money saver & convenience. some colleges are dire.
- Sports & society facilities - mine was more sports - but if your artsy of musical...)
- £££s for students in support funds/grants

Hope some of these might give you things to think about - visiting my shortlist decided it for me = gargoyles. :love:

Reply 14

Shadey

id like to thank everyone for all the help and imput they have given!

just to let you know im hoping to do PPE.

The political atmosphere doesnt really make a difference to me, I'm not the musical type butdo like my sport- although not overly serious!

accomadation- it is not very important considering where i am living at the moment! but as always, grants are very much welcome and from what i see both collages have these in place.

coming from scotland im certainly not posh even though i come from a fee-paying school so i think what i am really looking for is the right balance between work and play. I understand it is very hard for students to judge this and im sure everyone will fight their own corner- and i must say i very much respect the way in which students are so defensive for their respected collages- it shows that they are very proud of them.

Without causing too much trouble i would like to ask what difference student numbers make to college life. There is a substantial gap between the numbers at trinity and the numbers at magdalen. I can see positives about both but id like to know what you all think.

On a slightly more trivial note- does either or the universitys have gyms on site and also are there any oppertunities to study abroad at any point/any internships?

Thanks again everyone this has been a real help!

Reply 15

Waldo Dobbs

Shadey

Without causing too much trouble i would like to ask what difference student numbers make to college life. There is a substantial gap between the numbers at trinity and the numbers at magdalen. I can see positives about both but id like to know what you all think.
On a slightly more trivial note- does either or the universitys have gyms on site and also are there any oppertunities to study abroad at any point/any internships?
Thanks again everyone this has been a real help!

At Trinity you know everyone, but also everyone knows your business. As long as you're the receiver and not the generator of gossip, you won't find it a problem.

We had a few scots during my days at Trinity, but don't worry - everyone mocks the Newcastlian brigade instead.

Trinity has a gym. Some unknown persons even had sex in it once, allegedly. This is clearly a lie, because no one has sex at Trinity.

Opportunities to study abroad depend on the course, not the college. Trinity does award a travelling bursary for various circumstances, including one for people who have just finished their degree. Internships are almost invariably done off your own bat, rather than organised by the university, though a tutor may put in a good word for you.

Trinity is a wonderful place to study and I certainly enjoyed my time there.

Reply 16

Yttrium

Magdalen does have a gym on site (underneath the Wayneflete building) but that's strictly for rowers only. Boo.

However, what's realy good is that all Magdalen members (although some people don't know this) get free membership to the LA Fitness gym in the centre of town, which has all the usual equipment including a good set of weights machines, *and* a swimming pool, sauna and steam room.

Result!

Reply 17

greensurf

I know this is completly off topic but some of the posters seem quite informed about ox colleges, so i'll give it a shot. Could anyone tell me about the disadvantages of worcester college?!

Reply 18

Yttrium

However, what's realy good is that all Magdalen members (although some people don't know this) get free membership to the LA Fitness gym in the centre of town, which has all the usual equipment including a good set of weights machines, *and* a swimming pool, sauna and steam room.

Apparently this is no longer the case and we have to go down Iffley road nowadays. And the rent's going up. Boo hiss boo.

Reply 19

LianaG

Well I can't quote any number at you, but I just have to put in my 2p for Trinity here - unbeatable location, good accomodation for your whole course, great food (v.important), and such a beautiful college. But again, I'm biased :P.

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