Should Ched Evans play football again??
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Original post by Mackay
The PFA reportedly forced Sheffield United to allow Evans to be reintegrated into training.
How? His contract with them expired while he was in prison.
Original post by Eboracum
Well, rightly or wrongly we have laws of early release on grounds of compassion and good behaviour. If the judge allows it, then yes, he's done his time.
You misunderstand the system: the judge sentenced him to five years. Because he's not been too naughty in prison, he was released from there after two and a half years, but he's still serving his sentence and can be recalled to prison at any point. His release is conditional, and the conditions will include those above.
No I did not make that claim. I made the claim that if you are a woman and that a) you are very drunk, b) you voluntarily engage in lengthy discussion/flirting/kissing with a man you just met and c) you voluntarily agree to go back to his place...whilst none of these things mean you deserve it, it could be argued you could have taken measures to prevent the rape, by not doing the above.
"Although it is men who perpetrate rape, it is women who are urged to modify their behaviour by abstaining or drinking less, and thus accommodate the danger posed by predatory men. "
If you talked to another man while drunk and you went somewhere together, would you think you were "partly to blame" if he raped you?
I love Frank Underwood. I think the nature of the US Political system really does turn people like that. Whose your favourite character? Whose your least favourite?
Oh, Claire. Even though the second series does a WTF with her behaviour at the start - why be so horrid if she's going to hand over the NGO anyway? Having Frank being President by the end of the series was another mistake, because there was at least another series worth of material in his relationship with the President.
Original post by unprinted
You misunderstand the system: the judge sentenced him to five years. Because he's not been too naughty in prison, he was released from there after two and a half years, but he's still serving his sentence and can be recalled to prison at any point. His release is conditional, and the conditions will include those above.
He's served the mandatory segment of his sentence, most people will never serve the full amount of time they're sentenced to. If you were asked should a man released from prison after rape should be allowed to get an ordinary job id imagine you'd say yes. It's completely pointless to have a criminal justice system which aims to rehabilitate offenders if they're never allowed to get on with their life and they're punished for their whole life.
Original post by unprinted
"Although it is men who perpetrate rape, it is women who are urged to modify their behaviour by abstaining or drinking less, and thus accommodate the danger posed by predatory men. "
If you talked to another man while drunk and you went somewhere together, would you think you were "partly to blame" if he raped you?
If you talked to another man while drunk and you went somewhere together, would you think you were "partly to blame" if he raped you?
Well being as men rape women usually you'd obviously be expected to take less precautions. It seems to me that rape is the only crime where you can allocate no blame to the victim. If I were to walk through the worst estate in the UK wearing a 50k watch, talking very loudly on a gold plated iPhone and brandishing the keys to Lamborghini and I was mugged people would say it's wrong that it happened but most people in the back of their mind would think that I could have made better decisions.
It's undeniable that a large number of cases of rape happen when both parties are drunk. If it was like almost all other criminal offences where the defendant is presumed innocent then I'd be willing to be conviction rates would drop dramatically but as it is a woman simply has to say she doesn't remember but doubts she would have consented and without evidence to the contrary the man would likely be found guilty.
Whilst saying this I'm not for a second suggesting that all rape is like this, I'd imagine the majority isn't.
Posted from TSR Mobile
This is just the next stage of them bringing him back into the team 'through the back door' as it were.
Over the next few months it'll clearly play out something like this:
-plays for Sheffield United's youth team/reserves
-signs temp contract to the end of the season worth **** all
-included in match squad a few times
-brought on as a sub at home
-starts a few games towards the end of the season
-signs full time proper contract at the end of the season
-starts next season as a proper member of the squad with the media focus off him and the club
Wonder what odds you'd get now for him scoring the play off final winner. Would be typical.
Over the next few months it'll clearly play out something like this:
-plays for Sheffield United's youth team/reserves
-signs temp contract to the end of the season worth **** all
-included in match squad a few times
-brought on as a sub at home
-starts a few games towards the end of the season
-signs full time proper contract at the end of the season
-starts next season as a proper member of the squad with the media focus off him and the club
Wonder what odds you'd get now for him scoring the play off final winner. Would be typical.
I wouldn't have an issue with him playing football again for Sheffield United (as he's served his sentence) but I guess my issue is that he shows no remorse.
He's been found guilty of rape by a jury of his peers at a trial and he still calls it a "mistake that his cheated on his partner". Doesn't acknowledge what he did to the victim or even apologise.
I'm sure he think he's innocent in his own head but the lack of remorse is what makes me think he shouldn't get to play/get an easy ride.
He's been found guilty of rape by a jury of his peers at a trial and he still calls it a "mistake that his cheated on his partner". Doesn't acknowledge what he did to the victim or even apologise.
I'm sure he think he's innocent in his own head but the lack of remorse is what makes me think he shouldn't get to play/get an easy ride.
Original post by Zerforax
I wouldn't have an issue with him playing football again for Sheffield United (as he's served his sentence) but I guess my issue is that he shows no remorse.
He's been found guilty of rape by a jury of his peers at a trial and he still calls it a "mistake that his cheated on his partner". Doesn't acknowledge what he did to the victim or even apologise.
I'm sure he think he's innocent in his own head but the lack of remorse is what makes me think he shouldn't get to play/get an easy ride.
He's been found guilty of rape by a jury of his peers at a trial and he still calls it a "mistake that his cheated on his partner". Doesn't acknowledge what he did to the victim or even apologise.
I'm sure he think he's innocent in his own head but the lack of remorse is what makes me think he shouldn't get to play/get an easy ride.
If he believes he's innocent then he's hardly going to apologise, he'd view himself as the one who's been wronged
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Original post by Wade-
If he believes he's innocent then he's hardly going to apologise, he'd view himself as the one who's been wronged
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Posted from TSR Mobile
Agree but you can see why he looks like a terrible role model when he's been convicted by a jury and had his appeal refused.
I wouldn't have an issue if he said something like "I honestly believe I did nothing wrong but I apologise for any hardship caused to [name of victim]. Instead he makes out like he's the victim when he raped one woman and cheated on his fiance/girlfriend.
Original post by Eboracum
To be honest, I was angered over the row regarding the BBC Radio Show "The Moral Maze" in which Michael Buerk was criticised for his opening remarks. I think it's a reasonable view to hold that if a woman gets insanely drunk and a man is also very drunk, and she voluntarily gets in a taxi with a man, and voluntarily goes back to a mans house, then that woman is partly to blame if she gets raped. And I don't think that's extreme. I think that is a fair view. People take sensible precautions in other areas, so why not here? I don't want a load of Feminist theory thrown at me in response. You are perfectly entitled to walk down a dark alley in a dangerous place at night on your own. That is your right. But you should not do it, because it could be dangerous. In the same way that you are perfectly entitled to get insanely drunk so you are not in control, and to go home with mysterious men for one night stands. That's your right and your liberty. But If I was a parent, I'd advise strongly against it. As it could be dangerous. Even as a staunch Atheist, I acknowledge there is something to be said for the Christian/Traditional view of love and sex.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515592.stm
This BBC Survey from 2010 shows women agree with me. It is not a small minority that hold the view that women are partly to blame. I think that's a view most reasonable people take. It doesn't mean they deserved it, of course they didn't. And the person should be punished who committed the crime. But you take precautions.
Very interested to hear if anybody disagrees with me?
To be honest, I was angered over the row regarding the BBC Radio Show "The Moral Maze" in which Michael Buerk was criticised for his opening remarks. I think it's a reasonable view to hold that if a woman gets insanely drunk and a man is also very drunk, and she voluntarily gets in a taxi with a man, and voluntarily goes back to a mans house, then that woman is partly to blame if she gets raped. And I don't think that's extreme. I think that is a fair view. People take sensible precautions in other areas, so why not here? I don't want a load of Feminist theory thrown at me in response. You are perfectly entitled to walk down a dark alley in a dangerous place at night on your own. That is your right. But you should not do it, because it could be dangerous. In the same way that you are perfectly entitled to get insanely drunk so you are not in control, and to go home with mysterious men for one night stands. That's your right and your liberty. But If I was a parent, I'd advise strongly against it. As it could be dangerous. Even as a staunch Atheist, I acknowledge there is something to be said for the Christian/Traditional view of love and sex.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515592.stm
This BBC Survey from 2010 shows women agree with me. It is not a small minority that hold the view that women are partly to blame. I think that's a view most reasonable people take. It doesn't mean they deserved it, of course they didn't. And the person should be punished who committed the crime. But you take precautions.
Very interested to hear if anybody disagrees with me?
Except that wasn't what happened. She went home with his friend, not him. How is it at all reasonable to expect that if you go home with one man he will text his friend to ask him if he wants to have sex with you?
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Original post by Zerforax
I wouldn't have an issue if he said something like "I honestly believe I did nothing wrong but I apologise for any hardship caused to [name of victim]." Instead he makes out like he's the victim when he raped one woman and cheated on his fiance/girlfriend.
Exactly. Given that his own family caused quite a bit of additional hardship to the victim as well - and given that the victim never actually accused him of anything. If he has been wronged, he has been wronged by the system, not by her.
Footballers are always the victim though. Their on-pitch behaviour reflects this quite well.
Footballers are always the victim though. Their on-pitch behaviour reflects this quite well.
Not sure you can tarnish all footballers with the same brush! Yes not all are role models - however look at what they also do for charities and other people in the community. Granted some hit the headlines more than others with their antics, however footballers doing their bit for their community doesn't sell papers.
Not sure you can tarnish all footballers with the same brush! Yes not all are role models - however look at what they also do for charities and other people in the community. Granted some hit the headlines more than others with their antics, however footballers doing their bit for their community doesn't sell papers.
Original post by Zerforax
Agree but you can see why he looks like a terrible role model when he's been convicted by a jury and had his appeal refused.
I wouldn't have an issue if he said something like "I honestly believe I did nothing wrong but I apologise for any hardship caused to [name of victim]. Instead he makes out like he's the victim when he raped one woman and cheated on his fiance/girlfriend.
I wouldn't have an issue if he said something like "I honestly believe I did nothing wrong but I apologise for any hardship caused to [name of victim]. Instead he makes out like he's the victim when he raped one woman and cheated on his fiance/girlfriend.
I'd agree he's an awful role model: a crappy footballer who cheated on his girlfriend. I have faith in the legal system and though some details of the case seem strange I trust that the right outcome was reached. I feel like it it were me and I had served two and half years in prison for something I hadn't done (as he sees it in his mind) I wouldn't really care about the other person because I wouldn't perceive them as a victim and what they went through would pale in comparison.
Original post by llys
Exactly. Given that his own family caused quite a bit of additional hardship to the victim as well - and given that the victim never actually accused him of anything. If he has been wronged, he has been wronged by the system, not by her.
Footballers are always the victim though. Their on-pitch behaviour reflects this quite well.
Footballers are always the victim though. Their on-pitch behaviour reflects this quite well.
If she didn't accuse him how did he get convicted?
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Original post by Wade-
I'd agree he's an awful role model: a crappy footballer who cheated on his girlfriend. I have faith in the legal system and though some details of the case seem strange I trust that the right outcome was reached. I feel like it it were me and I had served two and half years in prison for something I hadn't done (as he sees it in his mind) I wouldn't really care about the other person because I wouldn't perceive them as a victim and what they went through would pale in comparison.
If she didn't accuse him how did he get convicted?
If she didn't accuse him how did he get convicted?
As far as I know, all she has ever said is that she woke up in a strange hotel room, couldn't remember anything, and therefore went to the police because she thought her drink had been spiked. The police then started to investigate. (Depending on how often you wake up unable to remember things after a night out, her reaction was perfectly reasonable, although it turned out that her drink hadn't been spiked.)
She didn't accuse Evans of raping her - in fact she couldn't, because she always maintained she couldn't remember anything, and that would include any potential rape. That the police / prosecution considered the evidence grounds enough for prosecution and the jury the evidence grounds enough for his conviction is not her fault.
Original post by llys
As far as I know, all she has ever said is that she woke up in a strange hotel room, couldn't remember anything, and therefore went to the police because she thought her drink had been spiked. The police then started to investigate. (Depending on how often you wake up unable to remember things after a night out, her reaction was perfectly reasonable, although it turned out that her drink hadn't been spiked.)
She didn't accuse Evans of raping her - in fact she couldn't, because she always maintained she couldn't remember anything, and that would include any potential rape. That the police / prosecution considered the evidence grounds enough for prosecution and the jury the evidence grounds enough for his conviction is not her fault.
She didn't accuse Evans of raping her - in fact she couldn't, because she always maintained she couldn't remember anything, and that would include any potential rape. That the police / prosecution considered the evidence grounds enough for prosecution and the jury the evidence grounds enough for his conviction is not her fault.
Oh that makes sense, I thought it'd be odd if the police investigated it for no reason. I think it goes to show how low the burden of proof is for rape. I'm not saying it didn't happen but for almost any other crime it'd take a lot more for s conviction
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Original post by Wade-
She woke up, soaked in urine, in the hotel not remembering what had happened and went to the police thinking her handbag etc had been stolen. They soon discovered who had been with her, and when interviewed, they both said 'Yep, I had sex with her'.
First the police, then the Crown Prosecution Service, and then a jury decided that she had been too out of it to consent. In Evans' case, the fact that he'd turned up in the middle of Macdonald having sex with her, had friends outside trying to film what was going on, gave evidence on oath that he hadn't asked if he could join in (Macdonald similarly said that he hadn't asked if Evans could do so), and then left via a fire escape can't have helped.
Original post by Wade-
I'd agree he's an awful role model: a crappy footballer who cheated on his girlfriend. I have faith in the legal system and though some details of the case seem strange I trust that the right outcome was reached. I feel like it it were me and I had served two and half years in prison for something I hadn't done (as he sees it in his mind) I wouldn't really care about the other person because I wouldn't perceive them as a victim and what they went through would pale in comparison.
If she didn't accuse him how did he get convicted?
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If she didn't accuse him how did he get convicted?
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You missed the bit where he's a convicted rapist.
Evans' issue is always going to be that his job is in a very public forum and so not caring about the victim is going to get him abuse from others who do care about the victim/the implications of his actions.
Original post by Wade-
Oh that makes sense, I thought it'd be odd if the police investigated it for no reason. I think it goes to show how low the burden of proof is for rape. I'm not saying it didn't happen but for almost any other crime it'd take a lot more for s conviction
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I'm calling bull**** on that! Rape charges are among the hardest to prove.
US source - https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
UK source - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html
Both put the figure at around only 3% of rapists are convicted.
Though the details and facts are more complicated, in essence it was decided that:
The female had sex with the first accused (testing showed the semen and the first accused did not deny having sex)
The jury agreed that the female had agreed to have sex with the first accused
The female had sex with the second accused [being Ched Evans] (testing showed the semen and the second accused did not deny having sex)
The jury agreed that the victim was in no state to give consent and therefore had not consented to sex with Ched Evans. He had unilaterally decided to penetrate her and therefore raped her.
There wouldn't be any kicking or screaming about a convicted rapist losing their job if he worked in an every day 9-5 job. You have to declare convictions when applying for a job and companies can refuse you work if that conviction makes you inappropriate for that. Just because he has a high profile career and a fan base, why should it be any different?
Footballers work in communities with youth players, are patrons for charities, are role models for youngsters. Surely a conviction of rape makes you inappropriate for those roles?
Footballers work in communities with youth players, are patrons for charities, are role models for youngsters. Surely a conviction of rape makes you inappropriate for those roles?
Original post by Wade-
Oh that makes sense, I thought it'd be odd if the police investigated it for no reason. I think it goes to show how low the burden of proof is for rape. I'm not saying it didn't happen but for almost any other crime it'd take a lot more for s conviction
Her word against his wouldn't have added much proof tbh, which is why rapes have a very low conviction rate. In this case there was other evidence about her state of mind and his behaviour before and after the act (CCTV, witnesses, etc) which led to his conviction.
There is a case to be made for changing the law on consent / how drunk you have to be to be considered unable to consent, or indeed how drunk you have to be to be unable to tell if someone else is still able to consent or not. But that's something to take up with the system, not with a rape victim.
Ched Evans strikes me as someone who thinks other people are not important. And his girlfriend just looks at him like a lovesick poodle.
(edited 9 years ago)
I don't think he should be banned from playing. But it's obviously up to the individual clubs whether or not to sign him - they are free to refuse to sign him if they so choose.
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