Should Britain return the Parthenon Marbles to Greece?

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Poll: Should Britain return the Parthenon Marbles to Greece?
Yes (14)
40%
No (21)
60%
intheTSRspirit
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If yes, the reason is obvious. If not, why?
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Snagprophet
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Is that in the Acropolis?
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JamieMT92
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The Greeks rabbiting on about the marbles is just a political play to try and divert attention from their decrepit economy, Its a very common tactic at the moment, just look at the Spanish (also screwed) with Gibraltar and the Argentinians (also screwed) with the Falklands.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by JamieMT92)
The Greeks rabbiting on about the marbles is just a political play to try and divert attention from their decrepit economy, Its a very common tactic at the moment, just look at the Spanish (also screwed) with Gibraltar and the Argentinians (also screwed) with the Falklands.
Have a like.

What he said.

It's a tried and tested strategy that when a government is unpopular or in difficulty, either blame somebody else for the trouble, or find a suitable distraction to make the electorate feel wronged someway.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by intheTSRspirit)
If yes, the reason is obvious. If not, why?
It might be easier if we buy the rest of the building and ship it to Swindon (the Athens of the West)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...oric-buildings
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the bear
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hmmm they should force the French to pay for the Acropolis to be repaired.
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Zürich
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(Original post by JamieMT92)
The Greeks rabbiting on about the marbles is just a political play to try and divert attention from their decrepit economy, Its a very common tactic at the moment, just look at the Spanish (also screwed) with Gibraltar and the Argentinians (also screwed) with the Falklands.
That might be true, but does that make their claim on them any less valid?

Britian looted them, we ought to return them if we have any decency at all.
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Andy98
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(Original post by Zürich)
That might be true, but does that make their claim on them any less valid?

Britian looted them, we ought to return them if we have any decency at all.
This.

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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Zürich)

Britian looted them, we ought to return them if we have any decency at all.
Only if you regard getting an export permit from the government as looting
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Zürich
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Only if you regard getting an export permit from the government as looting
From the Ottoman government, the foreign occupying power at the time. The Greeks had no say in the removal of a priceless piece of their history.

Would it have been acceptable for someone to buy the contents of the Louvre from the Nazis in 1940?

Had the Nazis occupied London, would you have found it acceptable for them to grant an export permit of the Domesday book, to say Turkey?

It is clearly wrong. Wrong then, and wrong now.
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MindTheGaps
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(Original post by Zürich)
That might be true, but does that make their claim on them any less valid?

Britian looted them, we ought to return them if we have any decency at all.
Rubbish. Lord Elgin took them because they were in danger of being destroyed. If it weren't for the Brits they would have long been broken down for quicklime, and there wouldn't be anything to argue over.

What claim of ownership does Greece really have? Other than, 'they were here once'? Unfortunately that's not how the law works.
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Zürich
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(Original post by Rinsed)
Rubbish. Lord Elgin took them because they were in danger of being destroyed. If it weren't for the Brits they would have long been broken down for quicklime, and there wouldn't be anything to argue over.

What claim of ownership does Greece really have? Other than, 'they were here once'? Unfortunately that's not how the law works.
What a wonderful act of altruism from us Brits! What wonderful chaps we were. Now, let's complete the act and return them, safe in the knowledge that they will be cared for properly in their rightful place.

What claim does Greece have? That they never consented to their removal? That they are as Greek as Stonehedge is British?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Zürich)
From the Ottoman government, the foreign occupying power at the time. The Greeks had no say in the removal of a priceless piece of their history.

Would it have been acceptable for someone to buy the contents of the Louvre from the Nazis in 1940?

Had the Nazis occupied London, would you have found it acceptable for them to grant an export permit of the Domesday book, to say Turkey?

It is clearly wrong. Wrong then, and wrong now.
They weren't a foreign occupying power. They were the lawful internationally accepted government and had been for 400 years.

A more realistic example would be where the UK has over the last 40 years given export licences for sales of works of art from Scottish country houses. If Scotland had voted for independence could Salmond have demanded all these items back from America or wherever?
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Zürich
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
They weren't a foreign occupying power. They were the lawful internationally accepted government and had been for 400 years.

A more realistic example would be where the UK has over the last 40 years given export licences for sales of works of art from Scottish country houses. If Scotland had voted for independence could Salmond have demanded all these items back from America or wherever?
The Scottish people democratically consent to having the UK government represent them The Ottomans were an occupying power in the true sense of the word. The Greeks were powerless to prevent them selling their pieces.

If the UK government had sold the Book of Kells in 1920 however, I think Ireland would be quite right in demanding their return.
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Gwilym101
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No, the ruling government of Greece at the time gave permission for their removal.

You don't get to change your mind after you've given away some of your priceless artefacts. They could try buying them back but that's it.

The british museum isn't the only museum with this sort of artwork and this line of reasoning could justify empty every museum in the world by insisting that artefacts be returned to their country of origin.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Zürich)
The Scottish people democratically consent to having the UK government represent them
You mean those ancestors of the Scottish people who were (a) alive in 1707 and (b) had the vote, democratically consented to having the UK government represent them.

You cannot use democracy as a touchstone of legitimacy here. Legitimacy has to be about international recognition of the legitimacy of a government.
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Zürich
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
You mean those ancestors of the Scottish people who were (a) alive in 1707 and (b) had the vote, democratically consented to having the UK government represent them.

You cannot use democracy as a touchstone of legitimacy here. Legitimacy has to be about international recognition of the legitimacy of a government.
What about decency? Doing what is simply right?

I am ashamed that we continue to hold them.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Zürich)
What about decency? Doing what is simply right?
Why is it right?
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turn-to-page394
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
You mean those ancestors of the Scottish people who were (a) alive in 1707 and (b) had the vote, democratically consented to having the UK government represent them.

You cannot use democracy as a touchstone of legitimacy here. Legitimacy has to be about international recognition of the legitimacy of a government.
What about the recent Scottish Referendum?
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InsertWittyName
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Tbh I'm pretty sure the British museum attracts more people than any museum in Greece, and is free for everyone. Personally I think that means a lot more people can appreciate it so it makes sense for the artifacts to be here. It's not like it's the Bill of Rights or the Magna Carta or any sort of constitutional artifact of that state that details the rights of those people. They're sculptures made a 2,500 odd years ago in an ancient civilisation that doesn't exist any more. I seriously doubt the people in Greece who are getting up arms about this can trace their lineage back to the ancient Greeks- chances are their forefathers were immigrants to the country. So it isn't really 'their' history anymore than Boudicca is a part of mine. The only real reason I can see for giving the artifacts back is it makes logical sense for the artifacts to be surrounded by the the Ancient Greek ruins.

The history of an ancient civilisation doesn't really belong to anybody. It should be wherever it can be available to the most people who can appreciate it. Just seems like the Greeks are trying to divert their attention away from more worrying problems.
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