Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kingslaw)
    I'm sorry. You're clearly an all knowing expert on everything as you're so well travelled. If you claim to have been to 'tons' of communist and ex communist countries, I thought you would have taken a bit more time to actually understand what most people mean by 'communism' and the theories and concepts of state capitalism. Until you do, there seems to be no point in talking to you.
    Ah. Envy. I have real life experience. I first travelled to Russia and Georgia before the wall came down, and saw Moscow, Leningrad, and Tblisi way back then.

    I lived in a former Soviet Republic. I have been to much of Eastern Europe. I'm married to someone who grew up in a communist country. I have many friends who experienced the same. I was a CPB member. I was also CSC activist. I also flirted with but never joined the SWP.

    And you? You know what you've read in a couple of books. <sniggers>

    You really make me laugh with your pathetic Marx avatar. And, you do remind me so much of a story a Polish friend of mine likes to tell.

    In or about 1974 my friend Adrian was at Speaker's corner in Hyde Park listening to some commie telling everyone about how great the USSR was, how there was no poverty, how it was a land of plenty. My friend, after pissing himself laughing, challenged the speaker and asked "Have you ever been"?

    Of course his answer was no. A bit like you really.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Howard)
    Capitalism allows social progress.

    I hate to advance anecdotes but here's an example.

    My great grandaddy was a threadbare jailbird for most of his life. His son, my grandfather did slightly better, leaving school at 14 and spending his life as a carpenter. His son, my father did better still. He left school at 15, became a carpenter, later started his own construction company, and just about making a million.

    Now there's me. I'll probably do better still. The first member of my family ever to go to university (albeit a poorly regarded one), owning 3 houses, a chartered profesional in a well paid job. I might improve on what my old man achieved.

    And my kids? Maybe better still? Maybe not the University of Central Lancashire but some med school and a career as a physician?

    Their kids? Who knows?LSE? Career politician?

    Capitalism allows that to happen. But it happens over generations. It's not immediate. And it only happens if aspirations are kept alive.

    Communism kills aspiration. It keeps miner's sons at the coalface perpetually.
    You're absolutely correct. My grandparents were not university educated. My parents went to very poor ones, and didn't have half the opportunities I had growing up.

    But hey, they worked hard, enough to put me through a private school albeit on a scholarship. And I'm going to a better university than them.

    Capitalism does give you opportunities in life, and the living standards in countries that have embraced it have increased wonderfully (tiger economies etc). If you can't beat them, join them.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kingslaw)
    I'm sorry. You're clearly an all knowing expert on everything as you're so well travelled. If you claim to have been to 'tons' of communist and ex communist countries, I thought you would have taken a bit more time to actually understand what most people mean by 'communism' and the theories and concepts of state capitalism. Until you do, there seems to be no point in talking to you.
    Kingslaw, I respect your opinion and the ideas of equal opportunities is commendable. However it is much better to have some people doing well, and others not so well than almost everyone in a country being poor with poor living standards. Capitalism gives people goals to work for.

    I have no doubt that in the near asia, countries such as india are going to advance greatly and pull out of poverty.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Howard)
    Ah. Envy. I have real life experience. I first travelled to Russia and Georgia before the wall came down, and saw Moscow, Leningrad, and Tblisi way back then.

    I lived in a former Soviet Republic. I have been to much of Eastern Europe. I'm married to someone who grew up in a communist country. I have many friends who experienced the same. I was a CPB member. I was also CSC activist. I also flirted with but never joined the SWP.

    And you? You know what you've read in a couple of books. <sniggers>

    You really make me laugh with your pathetic Marx avatar. And, you do remind me so much of a story a Polish friend of mine likes to tell.

    In or about 1974 my friend Adrian was at Speaker's corner in Hyde Park listening to some commie telling everyone about how great the USSR was, how there was no poverty, how it was a land of plenty. My friend, after pissing himself laughing, challenged the speaker and asked "Have you ever been"?

    Of course his answer was no. A bit like you really.
    This is entirely pointless. I truly dont care about your life story as it goes no way to backing up any of your beliefs or opinons, apart from one which you share with me: the USSR and their sattelite states were atrocious places to live. Instead you are using your experiences to argue against some strange viewpoint which I have never expressed! Why? Can you please tell me where I have promoted the USSR as anything but terrible and oppressive? I have always been glad of the fall of Stalinism.

    This is becoming entirely tedious and illogical. If you wish to argue against a point I have made, please can you make sure it is actually a point I have made! It may satisfy to have arguements with yourself, but for everyone else it is simply boring!

    And "<sniggers>"?!? Christ! How old are you?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    Kingslaw, I respect your opinion and the ideas of equal opportunities is commendable. However it is much better to have some people doing well, and others not so well than almost everyone in a country being poor with poor living standards. Capitalism gives people goals to work for.

    I have no doubt that in the near asia, countries such as india are going to advance greatly and pull out of poverty.
    Capitalism may give people goals to aim at, unfortunately they are highly unattainable for the majority of the world. If anything, the new global economy and unrestrained capitalism that has risen from 1980 onwards has made the weak economies weaker and less stable. The constant influx and outgoing of speculated capital can be very, very damaging - not just economically, but socially. In Thailand, a country which has openly embraced capitalist globalisation, child prostitution rose by 300% during its economic collapse in the late 1990s. Is this an example of the opportunities which capitalism enshrines? I think not.

    Also, I agree with you, it is much better to have "some people doing well, and others not so well than almost everyone in a country being poor with poor living standards". However, what is more attractive is a situation where everyone is given a decent standard of living with the opportunity for them to better themselves.

    And with regards to whether India will pull itself out of poverty, what do you mean by out of poverty? Countries such as Indonesia had supposedly pulled them out of poverty by embracing globalisation in the 90's, and were deemed to be prospering. However, when I went there I was absolutely disgusted. Next to spotless shopping centres plastered with European designer clothes stores, millions of people were starving in the shanty towns around Jakarta. The cost of a glove from these places were the average wage of a worker for about a year! What the captialist press and economists call prosperity are very different from what most human beings would describe as prosperity.

    And if your interested, a couple of years after I left Indonesia, there was a mass uprising against the horriffic inequalities in wealth.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kingslaw)
    How very silly of me! Of course, I forgot that capitalism improves society over time. You've put across a very firm arguement there which no-one can really object to(!)

    That was a very nice sweeping assumption. Now, if you dont mind, could you prove this please. Please bear in mind that the gap between rich and poor has infact widened: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/incomgap.htm
    Notice it says "rich and poor nations", not "rich and poor westeners". Although even if it did you can't relate income to standard of living. The standard of living improves exponentially until global ecophagy occurs. And it improves far faster in a functional (capitalist) society.

    Also, I agree with you, it is much better to have "some people doing well, and others not so well than almost everyone in a country being poor with poor living standards". However, what is more attractive is a situation where everyone is given a decent standard of living with the opportunity for them to better themselves.
    That's some bizzare imaginary world, not communism. If everyone can live fine without aspiration, then hardly anyone will have any.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    Kings law presupposes that the gap between rich and poor is all that matters ... Just because the gap has widened doesn't mean the overall benefits of Capitalism arent substantial... The system has increased EVERYONE's standard of living over the last 100 years. Whats better:

    A has 100, B has 50
    Or
    A has 200 B has 75

    This whole levelling down approach that all this communism requires is senseless ... I mean it doesn't work - I wish there was a Santa Clause, but hey ... not much I can do about it ....
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kingslaw)
    Capitalism may give people goals to aim at, unfortunately they are highly unattainable for the majority of the world. If anything, the new global economy and unrestrained capitalism that has risen from 1980 onwards has made the weak economies weaker and less stable. The constant influx and outgoing of speculated capital can be very, very damaging - not just economically, but socially. In Thailand, a country which has openly embraced capitalist globalisation, child prostitution rose by 300% during its economic collapse in the late 1990s. Is this an example of the opportunities which capitalism enshrines? I think not.

    Also, I agree with you, it is much better to have "some people doing well, and others not so well than almost everyone in a country being poor with poor living standards". However, what is more attractive is a situation where everyone is given a decent standard of living with the opportunity for them to better themselves.

    And with regards to whether India will pull itself out of poverty, what do you mean by out of poverty? Countries such as Indonesia had supposedly pulled them out of poverty by embracing globalisation in the 90's, and were deemed to be prospering. However, when I went there I was absolutely disgusted. Next to spotless shopping centres plastered with European designer clothes stores, millions of people were starving in the shanty towns around Jakarta. The cost of a glove from these places were the average wage of a worker for about a year! What the captialist press and economists call prosperity are very different from what most human beings would describe as prosperity.

    And if your interested, a couple of years after I left Indonesia, there was a mass uprising against the horriffic inequalities in wealth.
    There is no solution to global poverty. Personally I would kick all the people off benefits in developed countries (what's to stop them going out and becoming a cleaner) and give it as aid to the third world countries. I highly doubt that's going to happen though.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    There is no solution to global poverty. Personally I would kick all the people off benefits in developed countries (what's to stop them going out and becoming a cleaner) and give it as aid to the third world countries. I highly doubt that's going to happen though.
    I certainly hope not. I don't really want my tax dollars spent in Africa.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    If communism as it was warped were anything other than despotism maybe we could have had a different history. Fact is there never was a blueprint by Marx, Communism is basically one long criticism of capitalism and a warning about it and that it needs to be changed. Communism could have and may still work but it wont under the name of communism after it was hijacked by despots.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    No civilized people respect communists
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Howard)
    I certainly hope not. I don't really want my tax dollars spent in Africa.
    I would much rather the cash that I earnt (not the state) be given as aid to worthwile projects as opposed to helping some lazy sod in the UK not work. I know some people are legitimately out of work, but for 20 years? A lot of revenue can be saved if people are kicked off the dole in say two years after they start claiming. It's not like the UK's short of jobs anyway.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    I would much rather the cash that I earnt (not the state) be given as aid to worthwile projects as opposed to helping some lazy sod in the UK not work. I know some people are legitimately out of work, but for 20 years? A lot of revenue can be saved if people are kicked off the dole in say two years after they start claiming. It's not like the UK's short of jobs anyway.
    I'd pretty much go along with that.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by etomac)
    No civilized people respect communists
    whose to say who's civilised?
    Also, I believe it to be good in theory, but in practice it would never work out as those in power inevitably are or become corrupt and abuse their position.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    I would much rather the cash that I earnt (not the state) be given as aid to worthwile projects as opposed to helping some lazy sod in the UK not work. I know some people are legitimately out of work, but for 20 years? A lot of revenue can be saved if people are kicked off the dole in say two years after they start claiming. It's not like the UK's short of jobs anyway.
    They are kicked of JSA allowance after 6months-1year.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by corey)
    They are kicked of JSA allowance after 6months-1year.
    They are? They actually cut off all your benefits if you don't get a job after a year? I know the media twists things...but there was a woman who'd never had a job in the last thirty years, she lived on benefits. (no patronising tone intended)
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by etomac)
    No civilized people respect communists
    please dont make stupid one-liners
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by etomac)
    No civilized people respect communists
    OK. That was useful. You can go away now.
 
 
 
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: May 8, 2004
Poll
Which accompaniment is best?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.