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    (Original post by Absolution)
    That's wonderful :rolleyes: I'm so glad it isn't up to you, i suppose you think the prisoner torture was completely justified?
    ya im an awful person with no morals or anything. yep you have hit the nail on the head here. No i think it was incorrect but in the overall scheme of things it doesnt matter at all. These people dont deserve to be alive
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    (Original post by Absolution)
    Keep up, that was posted an hour ago :rolleyes:
    sorry, i didnt feel like wading through the pages of anti american drivel that usually goes along with these types of topics.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Btw: The main reason why people has such a critical view of america is due to all AMERICAN series and movies where the US government is portrayed as a completely corrupt organisation..
    which people are u talking about? I've never seen this.

    The main reason why Americans have a critical view on the Arabs is because of the hollywood movies which make Arabs out to be barbarians. In these fictious pieces of "entertainment", there always has to be an ending where the "evil Arab" blows himself up, and just before doing so says "Allah is Great". If in America one can get the death penatly for treason, these hollywood directors should alteast be locked up for a very long time for inciting hatred.

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    The US is perhaps teh country where criticism of the own state is most widespread. Yet people over here beleive that the opposite is the case.
    Yes, only over domestic issues. Most are clueless about foreign affairs. The world population is 6 billion, the american is only 200 million... which is more important?
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    (Original post by MuniE)
    ya im an awful person with no morals or anything. yep you have hit the nail on the head here. No i think it was incorrect but in the overall scheme of things it doesnt matter at all. These people dont deserve to be alive
    Entitled to think what you like of course, i just completely disagree with it.

    sorry, i didnt feel like wading through the pages of anti american drivel that usually goes along with these types of topics
    - PADFOOT90

    I guess that's understandable
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Giev me a break. US media is, biased sure enough. But that doesnt mean yoru generalisation is correct at all.
    Sorry I wont be drawn into a they generalise- I generalise debate. What I am saying about Americans has far reaching consequences, which affects the lives of millions of people for the worse. Howard himself said that the Americans are "indifferent". He is American… he would know. It is this indfference coupled with the "us-versus-them" attidude which is very dmaging for the world at large.
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    I'm not going to pretend what the US (and now UK troops) have been accused of doing to some Iraqi POW's is anything other than utterly disgusting. However, is anyone here actually suprised? Soliders are trained to fight and to kill. They are not police men, or jailers.

    I think the blame lies at the doors of the politicians for sending troops to be police men.
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    (Original post by PadFoot90)
    sorry, i didnt feel like wading through the pages of anti american drivel that usually goes along with these types of topics.
    I'm with him on this utterly. American's make such easy targets, and I'm sure most Brits (myself included) have been guilty of joining in ****ging of the US. But people, Britain isn't the innocent little bystander it's often portrayed as. Fact remains, Yanks have made a success of more things in this world than us judging by where the balance of power lies.
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    (Original post by Mariam Safe)
    Sorry I wont be drawn into a they generalise- I generalise debate. What I am saying about Americans has far reaching consequences, which affects the lives of millions of people for the worse. Howard himself said that the Americans are "indifferent". He is American… he would know. It is this indfference coupled with the "us-versus-them" attidude which is very dmaging for the world at large.
    He is one American. America, as I recall, is quite a large place. One person isn't necessarily representative.
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    (Original post by Tednol)
    I'm with him on this utterly. American's make such easy targets, and I'm sure most Brits (myself included) have been guilty of joining in ****ging of the US. But people, Britain isn't the innocent little bystander it's often portrayed as. Fact remains, Yanks have made a success of more things in this world than us judging by where the balance of power lies.
    Someone who agrees with me :eek: *faints*

    Anyway, it seems to me like people forget that the UK is in this war as well.
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    (Original post by PadFoot90)
    Haven't read this, but for all the American bashers, that i am assuming there are here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm
    Dude you are a clever person - no need for tit-for-tat stuff man!
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    (Original post by PadFoot90)
    Anyway, it seems to me like people forget that the UK is in this war as well.
    We are..?

    :eek:
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    (Original post by Tednol)
    I think the blame lies at the doors of the politicians for sending troops to be police men.
    This is not an issue of their ability at being policemen; rather, we simply require common decency, at least a primitive understanding of morality and a realisation that as soldiers in this war they represent the values of the western world. I don't give a **** whether we are at war or not, for even war time situations do not call for the abandonment of even the most basic moral principles and human rights. There is no excuse and the idea that the blame lies with Blair and Bush is simply unfounded.
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    (Original post by mikesgt2)
    This is not an issue of their ability at being policemen; rather, we simply require common decency, at least a primitive understanding of morality and a realisation that as soldiers in this war they represent the values of the western world. I don't give a **** whether we are at war or not, for even war time situations do not call for the abandonment of even the most basic moral principles and human rights. There is no excuse and the idea that the blame lies with Blair and Bush is simply unfounded.
    When people are trained to be better at killing than people they are fighting against or they get killed... is common decency a requirement? I have respect for the armed forces - I come from a military family. But you can't expect trained, elite killers to be peacekeepers. If that is where the need within the military is shifting then fine, train up more peacekeepers. But lets not blame the squaddie in the desert who is told to become a jailer.

    I'm more shocked at the time it's taken a story like this to emerge, than the fact it has emerged. Take 100,000 people and you get some odd-balls. The soliders of both sides have been incredible when you look at what they have done.
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    (Original post by Tednol)
    When people are trained to be better at killing than people they are fighting against or they get killed... is common decency a requirement? I have respect for the armed forces - I come from a military family. But you can't expect trained, elite killers to be peacekeepers. If that is where the need within the military is shifting then fine, train up more peacekeepers. But lets not blame the squaddie in the desert who is told to become a jailer.

    I'm more shocked at the time it's taken a story like this to emerge, than the fact it has emerged. Take 100,000 people and you get some odd-balls. The soliders of both sides have been incredible when you look at what they have done.
    Some oddballs? Psychologists would argue that you could expect many hundreds in a group of 100,000 soldiers.
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    (Original post by HasanB)
    I must say that the british troops in Basra have done a splendid job thus far, theyve made the effort to be friendly and less intimidating and to win the hearts of the ppl there. The Americans have no clue how to do this, and now becoz of those few idiots the british work may be undone ... and they will be targeted in revenge too.

    Do you still stand by this comment Hasan - in view of latest news?
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    Some posters have opined 'well, what do you expect, they are soldiers after all?'

    Yet we have General Sir Michael (whatever his name is) saying 'these soldiers have besmirched the queen's uniform'.

    What a joke! The standards of the soldiers behavious is set by those at the top. They would never behave like this if they didn't think they had the backing of their commanding officers.

    It will be a whitewash - the soldiers will be court marshalled, found guilty and then, after a while, be re-instated and promoted. It happened all the time in N. Ireland after soldiers had tortured or killed nationalists. One name springs to mind - Corporal Perry(?). He killed a 17 year old joy-rider with a bullet in the back and was sentenced to life and drummed out of army etc. After 2 years he was released and returned to army and was duly promoted!
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    (Original post by Tednol)
    When people are trained to be better at killing than people they are fighting against or they get killed... is common decency a requirement? I have respect for the armed forces - I come from a military family. But you can't expect trained, elite killers to be peacekeepers. If that is where the need within the military is shifting then fine, train up more peacekeepers. But lets not blame the squaddie in the desert who is told to become a jailer.

    I'm more shocked at the time it's taken a story like this to emerge, than the fact it has emerged. Take 100,000 people and you get some odd-balls. The soliders of both sides have been incredible when you look at what they have done.
    I totally disagree with you. I have two problems with what you are saying,

    1. "But lets not blame the squaddie in the desert who is told to become a jailer." I think this is a slightly different point, whether the soldiers are trained to be jailers or not is an an important issue; however, this debate does not concern their ability at running prisons, it concerns flagrant human rights abuses. You should not have to be trained as a jailor to know that beating prisoners, urinating on them, making Iraqis strip naked and forcing them into sexual positions is amoral. Nobody on this forum has gone to a training session at which it was taught that such acts were wrong; rather, we all simply have a measure of common decency which I would expect of all human beings on this planet. Hence, I disagree with your argument about a lack of training, if new recruits to the army lack common decency and demonstrate such thuggery they should be kept a million miles from the army. Such behavior has no place in the world and, above all, not in our armed forces nor the US forces and certainly not in Iraq.

    2. "When people are trained to be better at killing than people they are fighting against or they get killed... is common decency a requirement?" From my arguments above, I think common decency is a requirement but I also take issue with the idea that soldiers in Iraq should only be expected to act as 'elite killers,' as you call them. This was a war in which it was clear, or at least should have been clear to the MOD and Pentagon, that winning the peace would be an essential part of the campaign. As events have played out the actual fighting was minimal and the peace effort is now by far the most important part of this war. Whether the defence forces of the coalition could have predicted this I am not sure, but what is clear to me is that this was a war in which while skill at combat and killing were clearly required, training in peacekeeping was equally important. As a result, I am very surprised at the notion that all the soldiers sent out were 'elite killers,' especially when the media keeps on going on about our experience in Northern Ireland and how well we have coped with the situation in Basra. As far as I am concerned, 'elite killers' should not have been in Iraq and, more importantly, I do not think 'elite killers' are excused from such acts. Unless, of course, army training involves brainwashing and the removal of any moral sense, which I doubt very much.

    That is, a a lack of training as jailors is not the issue, nor is the idea that they may be 'elite killers.' I do accept your point about odd-balls, but I take the view that expecting soldiers not to torture Iraqi prisoners is not very much to ask. You may think I am moralizing or upholding an idealistic view of the world, but I simply cannot see how this can be excused.
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    justifcation for sucide bombing prehaps, madness
    To let you know, i oppose the idea of suicide bombers, its wrong, against everything that their religion tells them
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    (Original post by crana)
    I loved this quote from the BBC:

    " In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals. "

    CHECK THE HORRIFIC TORTURE! A cigarette in her mouth! Pretending to hold a gun! (actually, in the pic, she looks like she's just pointing and giving a thumbs-up. although i dont really see that it makes much difference)

    Also, the BBC says it's wires-on-genitals, but the Mirror goes with wires-on-hands.

    Rosie
    who cares what they say, she did it didn't she, american *****
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    (Original post by Babygal)
    who cares what they say, she did it didn't she, american *****
    whoa .., a ***** she is , but whats the point of bringing the whole of america into this and making it sound like all american women are *****es ! i mean im from pakistan and a few pakistanis have done stupid things , id be offended if someone sed gay paki ... so stop generalising ...
 
 
 
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