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Getting the Chop...
Hi everyone,
After giving a career as a pilot some thought, it has occurred to me that even after selection at OASC, before fulfilling my dream of becoming a front line fast jet pilot, I must still get through seven stages of training, where I may (and people do) get chopped. These are as follows (please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Initial Officer Training
2. Elementary Flying Training
3. Basic Fast-Jet Flying Training
4. Advanced Fast-Jet Flying Training
5. Tactical Weapons Training
6. Operational Conversion
7. Finally a "Combat Ready" Status must be earned once on the front line unit.
I far from expect the training to be a breeze, but I have heard figures thrown about along the lines of only 1 in 52 of those accepted for pilot training actually makes it to the front line.
Does anyone have knowledge in this area? Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
After giving a career as a pilot some thought, it has occurred to me that even after selection at OASC, before fulfilling my dream of becoming a front line fast jet pilot, I must still get through seven stages of training, where I may (and people do) get chopped. These are as follows (please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Initial Officer Training
2. Elementary Flying Training
3. Basic Fast-Jet Flying Training
4. Advanced Fast-Jet Flying Training
5. Tactical Weapons Training
6. Operational Conversion
7. Finally a "Combat Ready" Status must be earned once on the front line unit.
I far from expect the training to be a breeze, but I have heard figures thrown about along the lines of only 1 in 52 of those accepted for pilot training actually makes it to the front line.
Does anyone have knowledge in this area? Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
Reply 1
Olaff
Hi everyone,
After giving a career as a pilot some thought, it has occurred to me that even after selection at OASC, before fulfilling my dream of becoming a front line fast jet pilot, I must still get through seven stages of training, where I may (and people do) get chopped. These are as follows (please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Initial Officer Training
2. Elementary Flying Training
3. Basic Fast-Jet Flying Training
4. Advanced Fast-Jet Flying Training
5. Tactical Weapons Training
6. Operational Conversion
7. Finally a "Combat Ready" Status must be earned once on the front line unit.
I far from expect the training to be a breeze, but I have heard figures thrown about along the lines of only 1 in 52 of those accepted for pilot training actually makes it to the front line.
Does anyone have knowledge in this area? Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
After giving a career as a pilot some thought, it has occurred to me that even after selection at OASC, before fulfilling my dream of becoming a front line fast jet pilot, I must still get through seven stages of training, where I may (and people do) get chopped. These are as follows (please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Initial Officer Training
2. Elementary Flying Training
3. Basic Fast-Jet Flying Training
4. Advanced Fast-Jet Flying Training
5. Tactical Weapons Training
6. Operational Conversion
7. Finally a "Combat Ready" Status must be earned once on the front line unit.
I far from expect the training to be a breeze, but I have heard figures thrown about along the lines of only 1 in 52 of those accepted for pilot training actually makes it to the front line.
Does anyone have knowledge in this area? Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
I am not an expert in this (or any area) but I remeber reading a post by Wzz that covered the failure rates. Wzz has made only two posts but it should be something along the lines of "enough about iot". (Must figure out how to add linkds someday!)
Reply 2
Its very competitive to get on FJ. I was speaking to a harrier pilot at Shoreham airshow and also a QFI on the Toucano's. By the sounds of it, 19 squadron, where you get taught the tactical and weapons element side to FJ piloting is the most demanding.
I'm not sure how they decide who is to be re-streamed after being 'chopped' and I'm sure Wzz will be able to enlighten us on this!
James
.
I'm not sure how they decide who is to be re-streamed after being 'chopped' and I'm sure Wzz will be able to enlighten us on this!
James
.
Reply 3
Incidently, the QFI on the Toucano had been chopped at Valley, where he was due to be re-streamed on rotary. He negotiatied a placement to become a QFI on fixed wing instead though!
Olaff
Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
I am aware that the only way to find out if I am good enough is to give it a shot - I am nevertheless curious to know more about the career i'm getting myself into.
As always, many thanks.
As suggested Wzz probably has the best handle on the detailed facts and figures, but in his absence I will try and provide some answers. In principle, the RAF is trying to reduce failure rates throughout the training pipeline, as failures are costly and a waste of resources. However, they will not drop their standards, and so some failures do occur. The majority of failures occur in the earlier stages of FT, mostly EFT.
The thing to remember is that with numbers of pilots in training being so small nowdays, even very small actions have a fairly dramatic effect on the overall training pipeline. For example, when it was decided that RN pilots were going to be absorbed into a Joint Harrier Force, even though this was only about 7 pilots a year, it had something like a 10 year knock on effect in terms of training slots that had been available. It only takes something like the RNZAF deciding to get rid of all its FJ ac and a few FJ pilots transferring across to the RAF, and the figures all get skewed again (which happened in about 2003). The result of that is that if you fail at some point in the training pipeline, it is very hard to tell what will happen to you, you are really at the mercy of the conditions at the time. If you have a decent record up 'til you are chopped, and there are ME or RW slots available, you may be offered one, but if there aren't, you won't.
The advice I would give is not to go into it with a do-or-die attitude with regard to pilot. That doesn't mean that you don't give it your very best shot, but if you don't keep an eye on the other options, you can find yourself facing a very nasty career decision at some point.
Over my career the training pipeline varied so much that I know of people chopped post their wings parade, as well as times when there were open transfers to pilot from other aircrew trades/branches because numbers were so low.
Olaff
Does anyone have knowledge in this area? Do many trainees have their training terminated for good? Under what condition are you re-streamed? This I ask because I have heard stories of people at Linton getting chopped, but not re-streamed, say onto multis.
All very difficult, if not impossible, questions to answer!
Do "many" trainees get chopped altogether? Depends what you mean by many. The biggest problem with people being chopped is that guys in your shoes only tend to hear the story from both the choppee and people around on course at the same time; never from the people who do the chopping!
Every case is completely individual. There is a defined, written-down course standard and a defined set of training objectives that explain what you need to do throughout every course.
If you don't achieve the course standard, then you'll get extra training. You don't need to be course standard in every element to pass a trip, but you do in general to pass an end-of-phase test. If you fail a test, you'll be given some remedial flying.
This remedial flying is tailored to your specific failings and is designed to get you over the hurdle you fell at. Any decision to chop someone is made by a senior supervisor; and that may be after 1 test or 3, it depends on whether the student in question will benefit from further training.
So yes, you might get chopped on your first BHT at Linton, or your third; it depends on precisely what you fail on, and there're a lot of things to slip up on. Whether or not you are restreamed depends on dozens of factors; there's no simple "pass this test and you're guaranteed a restream" point, nor is it a case of "fail before this test and you won't be restreamed." Every case is entirely individual.
What you must remember is that someone on their Linton BFJT may have 60 hours in the Tutor and 50 in the Tucano. That's only 110 hours military flying; which used to be an acceptable average to leave your UAS with! At that stage, there could be fundamental problems with your flying beginning to surface which can't be corrected, which would leave you unsuitable for ME or RW flying.
Conversely, another person in the same boat could just struggle with situational awareness during aerobatics or low flying at Tucano speeds; their precise set of circumstances may make it look like they'd perform will in a multi-crew environment, or they'd suit the RW or ME training better.
It's impossible to answer this simply. As far as chop rates go, historical chop rates are nonsense and of no use. I could tell you how many people were chopped on my courses at various times, but that's only down to the performance of the guys I went through training with, nothing else. I could speak to mates at various FTSs and ask how many they chopped off their last courses, but I seem to remember you had good ones and bad ones; one might graduate 50% of their number for various reasons, then the next graduates 100%.
You're right in saying that the only way to know is to try. There are plenty of people who were average at EFT, average at BFJT, average through Valley, and became competent, average CR FJ pilots. Likewise, there were high average EFT pilots who were high average at Linton and got chopped on the Hawk; or above average EFT pilots who failed at Linton. There's no 100% certain way to predict.
Reply 6
As Wzz said, there is no way to predict. I was foolish enough to mention chop rates to do with something totally different, and Wzz was kind enough to set me straight with my way of thinking. Whatever stream you go, you risk getting chopped. As Wzz said, you may excel and EFT yet find Linton isn't your cup of tea and struggle, yet some take longer to improve and in the end make excellent pilots. Everyone reaches their peak at a different time and has different strengths and weaknesses. You just tend to hear more about the chop rates at Linton and Valley, which isn't suprising as you need to be good to pass.
I can't comment really on any of your questions as I have only ever seen and heard the student side (I haven't been chopped (yet!) by the way). And it always sounds like they were chopped unfairly, but as Wzz said there is always a good reason. Things in life don't just happen, they happen for a reason.
I can't comment really on any of your questions as I have only ever seen and heard the student side (I haven't been chopped (yet!) by the way). And it always sounds like they were chopped unfairly, but as Wzz said there is always a good reason. Things in life don't just happen, they happen for a reason.
It's exceptionally, exceptionally rare for a student to be chopped unfairly. There's such a phenomenal paper trail, and generally he has to fail a defined training objective; so there'll be a handful of sortie reports from various, progressively more senior, QFIs explaining that he isn't making it. He'll be offerred remedial flying and all the help possible, and if it still isn't working he'll be presented to a withdrawal board.
The withdrawal board will be staffed by QFIs who haven't had any real contact with the poor choppee, and they'll be given copies of the student's recent reports and a specifically-written end of course report. The student himself sees this end of course report and is allowed to comment on anything within it if he thinks its unfair.
He then gets to speak at the withdrawal board, and present a written statement explaining poor performance and putting forward his side of events. He can even list preferences for restreaming or rebranching.
The final decision from the board goes forward to Wing Commander level. No-one pitches up to work to be told "sorry, you've been chopped," and if anyone thinks it's unfair they have several stages at which they can protest. If they appeal, they'll often be reinstated unless there's a robust paper trail proving he's not up to it.
Unsurprisingly, most students aren't keen to tell you they were chopped because they were rubbish, and that's why there're dozens of stories of unfair choppings, witch hunts, personality clashes etc floating around.
The withdrawal board will be staffed by QFIs who haven't had any real contact with the poor choppee, and they'll be given copies of the student's recent reports and a specifically-written end of course report. The student himself sees this end of course report and is allowed to comment on anything within it if he thinks its unfair.
He then gets to speak at the withdrawal board, and present a written statement explaining poor performance and putting forward his side of events. He can even list preferences for restreaming or rebranching.
The final decision from the board goes forward to Wing Commander level. No-one pitches up to work to be told "sorry, you've been chopped," and if anyone thinks it's unfair they have several stages at which they can protest. If they appeal, they'll often be reinstated unless there's a robust paper trail proving he's not up to it.
Unsurprisingly, most students aren't keen to tell you they were chopped because they were rubbish, and that's why there're dozens of stories of unfair choppings, witch hunts, personality clashes etc floating around.
Reply 8
Wzz
Unsurprisingly, most students aren't keen to tell you they were chopped because they were rubbish, and that's why there're dozens of stories of unfair choppings, witch hunts, personality clashes etc floating around.
Interestingly, everyone I've spoken to, without exception, who's been chopped has viewed it as one of the best things that's ever happened to them. As Wzz says, it's such a long process, the feeling of relief is apparently palpable, if you're not making the grade.
Reply 10
this thread had made me curious about the training at fj ocu so I asked some of our instructors and students about their experiences.
Once you end up here the likelyhood of getting chopped is very low. In the year I have been here none of the students have been chopped. O.K. a lot of them have had to repeat check sorties, some quite a few times! This includes the navs as well as the front seat types. The overall impression I got is that the review process is very very thorough. Also the students have had various degrees of difficulty during their journey to front line.
So with the info provided by everyone else the ball is in your court, so hurry up and apply already!!
If you want to get a little first hand experience look up the units with trianing or ocu's and arrange a visit. That way you can ask some students yourself and hopefully put to rest any demons you may have about the process
Once you end up here the likelyhood of getting chopped is very low. In the year I have been here none of the students have been chopped. O.K. a lot of them have had to repeat check sorties, some quite a few times! This includes the navs as well as the front seat types. The overall impression I got is that the review process is very very thorough. Also the students have had various degrees of difficulty during their journey to front line.
So with the info provided by everyone else the ball is in your court, so hurry up and apply already!!
If you want to get a little first hand experience look up the units with trianing or ocu's and arrange a visit. That way you can ask some students yourself and hopefully put to rest any demons you may have about the process
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